Strange Question RE: 4e.

[mneme]

Minifig: Warden's grasp doesn't trigger on movement at all--it triggers on an attack. The only thing you have that will punish movement is the OA -- and the whole point of a shift is that it doesn't trigger OAs.

The best way to prevent enemies from shifting away from you is to pin them up against a wall--or better, pin them against a wall and use a power that makes squares adjacent to you difficult terrain.

 

[Prestidigitalis]

I know level 6 is a ways off, but Treacherous Ice (Warden Utility 6) gives you a stance that keeps enemies from shifting into or out of squares adjacent to you. That's one full encounter per day where you can keep the shifty types in their place.

 

[Minifig]

Minifig: Warden's grasp doesn't trigger on movement at all--it triggers on an attack. The only thing you have that will punish movement is the OA -- and the whole point of a shift is that it doesn't trigger OAs.

The best way to prevent enemies from shifting away from you is to pin them up against a wall--or better, pin them against a wall and use a power that makes squares adjacent to you difficult terrain.

Ahh. Okay. Now I'm starting to understand, and thank you for the idea of pinning the buggers against walls.

I know level 6 is a ways off, but Treacherous Ice (Warden Utility 6) gives you a stance that keeps enemies from shifting into or out of squares adjacent to you. That's one full encounter per day where you can keep the shifty types in their place.

That's a great idea, I just don't know how often we're going to be running into these damn goblins. :/

 

[thewok]

I play a Longtooth Shifter in a game with one other player. My goal is both to soak up damage so the Shaman doesn't get too hurt and to dish out a decent amount of damage due to the fact that we have no Striker or Controller at our disposal.

I'm not sure if this will be of any use to you, but I have a slightly higher AC, which I'm thinking comes from my Wildblood Feature. It should also be noted that we roll 4d6 for stats, so my stats are definitely on the high side. The important ones, though, are Strength and Wisdom, which are attainable with point-buy.

[sblock]

====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&D Character Builder ======
Kuge, level 3
Longtooth Shifter, Warden
Build: Wild Warden
Guardian Might: Wildblood

FINAL ABILITY SCORES
Str 20, Con 16, Dex 15, Int 16, Wis 19, Cha 14.

STARTING ABILITY SCORES
Str 18, Con 16, Dex 15, Int 16, Wis 17, Cha 14.


AC: 21 Fort: 17 Reflex: 16 Will: 16
HP: 47 Surges: 12 Surge Value: 11

TRAINED SKILLS
Nature +10, Athletics +10, Intimidate +8, Perception +10

UNTRAINED SKILLS
Acrobatics, Arcana +4, Bluff +3, Diplomacy +3, Dungeoneering +5, Endurance +3, Heal +5, History +4, Insight +5, Religion +4, Stealth, Streetwise +3, Thievery

FEATS
Level 1: Wildblood Cunning
Level 2: Wild Senses

POWERS
Warden at-will 1: Weight of Earth
Warden at-will 1: Thorn Strike
Warden encounter 1: Wildblood Frenzy
Warden daily 1: Form of the Relentless Panther
Warden utility 2: Nature's Abundance
Warden encounter 3: Predatory Guardian

ITEMS
Heavy Shield, Adventurer's Kit, Sling, Sling Bullets (20), Battleaxe, Magic Hide Armor +1
[/sblock]

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

Remember, Goblins are specifically very slippery little buggers. Even fighters are going to have trouble nailing them down, so don't judge by a worst case scenario what you can do.

That being said Warden's Grasp is going to slow one marked enemy that goes after one of your allies EVERY round, plus it slows the bugger so you can do extra damage with your hammer feat (which is excellent BTW, what I see of your build here seems fine). If the enemy is foolish enough to stand next to you and attack someone you can choose to go with Warden's Fury instead. That one being an interrupt can kill an enemy before it ever gets off its attack. Also if you can put something like knock prone on your attack somehow that just debuffs them even more.

Stick right close to someone you want to protect, then if the enemy attacks THEM they get -2 and that's IF you don't kill them with WF first. Really your damage IS almost striker level, not quite, but it is still up there with other defenders. Mark lots of targets too. Constant -2 to-hit does add up.

You could consider Tempest Assault as an at-will too, that can add in another CON bonus of damage (admittedly on an off target, but you gotta kill 'em all eventually anyway and it will add up). Weight of Earth is so obvious a choice that really you can't afford to pass it up. I'd Whack them with that and then you can use Tempest Assault on them the next round to harvest that CON bonus twice.

Toss on Weapon Focus and a nice hammer enchantment. Earth Wrought Hammer for instance Knocks prone on a crit, which is very nice because that really will tie the guy up for a whole round. It isn't going to kick in too often but it is a usable level 1 enchantment. A Staggering Hammer would be even better. Resounding Hammer would be good too, or a Lullaby Hammer (lala stick!). Temblor Weapon could be really cute too! I'm sure there are others, the Dwarven Thrower for instance.

Just keep looking for things that slow, knock prone, daze, etc. ANY enemy with one of those conditions on it that you're next to is going to have to provoke or else try to attack you. I'd definitely consider taking Toughness, you ARE likely to get beat on a lot!

There are a lot of feats you can use to pile on extra damage. Warden ones include Courage of the Lone Stag, Crushing Guardian, Sudden Roots!!!, Crippling Crush!!!, some of the font series of feats, etc.

 

[DEFCON 1]

Minifig: Warden's grasp doesn't trigger on movement at all--it triggers on an attack. The only thing you have that will punish movement is the OA -- and the whole point of a shift is that it doesn't trigger OAs.

mneme's right on here. The ability to attack a shifting Marked enemy is purely a Fighter class feature... and not a feature of the Marked condition. This is one of the things that makes Fighters really good and a bit more "controllery"... they get to keep enemies from shifting around the battlefield (provided the enemy doesn't want to get hit).

The Warden is definitely a more defensive class, as we've said. Higher HP, higher AC, Jester's fabulous point about the "beginning of the round save" which can eliminate 50% of all Ongoing damage, etc. Abdul is also correct that you can build your Warden to produce more damage... but you just have to forsake your defense a bit to do so. And at low levels... it will be an extremely hard decision whether to take a damage-producing feat, or something like Toughness to give you the extra HP needed to absorb all the additional blows you will receive by being able to Mark everyone adjacent to you.

It's actually kind of ironic that I feel as though the best location for wardens to fight are actually in dungeons and hallways, rather than above-ground, out in nature, on wide-open battlefields. The tighter you, your party and the enemies are packed in... the more enemies you can get adjacent to, the more you can Mark, and the more often enemies that you have Marked will attack other party members while remaining adjacent to you because they have nowhere to move or have been jammed up against walls or terrtain (thereby letting you use Warden's Fury). It's the Fighters who actually are better off above-ground, because they WANT enemies to have the opportunity to move away from them and thus (if the enemy tries and takes it) will trigger Combat Challenge and Combat Superiority, thereby stopping the attempt in its tracks. In a packed hallway that kind of enemy movement doesn't usually happen, because there's not enough room to shift or move away. The enemy decides to just remain locked in hand-to-hand with the fighter, and thus those Fighter class features don't often get used.

 

[Brys]

battlemind

To go in a completely different direction, have you looked at a battlemind? They have an at-will that gives damage resistance (it's an effect of Iron Fist, so it works hit or miss) to help you absorb hits all day long. For your mark, if they shift, you can shift 1 (usually enough to keep up with them). If they attack someone else and hit them while you are next to them, they take damage equal to what they dealt. You can use both of those features in the same round.
Just a thought...

 

[Mapache]

Shifting should count as a movement.

The only reason shifting exists is to let you move without counting as movement for purposes of provoking.

 

[yesnomu]

Minifig: Check out Form of the Winter's Herald, from PHB2. It gives you an encounter-long aura 2 of enemy-only difficult terrain. In other words, enemies (except elves, I guess) can't shift away from you! The warden in my game gave my enemies hell with that power (especially with the old Salves of Power...).

 

[Fkewl]

I played a Goliath Earthstrength Warden, loved it
(a bit more sturdy with the Temp HP racial)

You are a defender, you must be the target of attacks. That's your job
The Warden has alot of slow/immobilize powers, use that

Here's a build i made

Earthstrength warden : bonus to AC when using Second Wind
Feats :
Crippling Crush, for that extra crunchiness on hits
Sudden Roots, makes you Opp Attacks that much better (slow+dmg from crippling crush.. )
Next feat suggestion : Vicious Advantage (CA on slowed creatures)

At-wills : Strength of stone for temp hp and Weight of Earth for slow+dmg with crippling crush
Encounter : root of stone, burst 1, enemy cant leave zone without being prone
Utility : Endure Pain (Endurance training) Resist 8 as an interrupt
Daily : extra AC, create a zone of difficult terrain (no shifts, more opp attacks that slow and more damage..)

I would suggest keeping Pursuit of Hunter as your racial so you can go after enemies that still run away, (unlucky dice rolls are the usual culprits)

Wilden, Warden
Guardian Might: Earthstrength
Hardy Form: Hardy Form Reflex

FINAL ABILITY SCORES
Str 18, Con 16, Dex 10, Int 10, Wis 13, Cha 8.

STARTING ABILITY SCORES
Str 18, Con 14, Dex 10, Int 10, Wis 11, Cha 8.


AC: 19 Fort: 16 Reflex: 14 Will: 13
HP: 40 Surges: 12 Surge Value: 10

TRAINED SKILLS
Nature +9, Dungeoneering +7, Endurance +6, Athletics +7

UNTRAINED SKILLS
Acrobatics -2, Arcana +1, Bluff, Diplomacy, Heal +2, History +1, Insight +2, Intimidate, Perception +2, Religion +1, Stealth, Streetwise, Thievery -2

FEATS
Level 1: Crippling Crush
Level 2: Sudden Roots

POWERS
Warden at-will 1: Weight of Earth
Warden at-will 1: Strength of Stone
Warden encounter 1: Roots of Stone
Warden daily 1: Form of Winter's Herald
Warden utility 2: Endure Pain

ITEMS
Hide Armor, Adventurer's Kit, Heavy Shield, Frost Warhammer +1