D&D 5E Strength bows?

[phantomK9]

@ El Madi

I registered to the forum just so I could start posting some of the information that you have already posted in your previous posts. Well done, some very good information.

While I'm perfectly fine with the way D&D has abstracted bows into using Dex, as an archaic archery enthusiast, I sometimes wish there were more accurate rules regarding how bows actually worked, especially during the 3e days and how they got so many thing wrong.

Mainly I wish they had bow ranges based on STR score. This would be one simple way to bring in STR score without making it absolutely necessary to have a high STR to be an effective archer, leaving the attack and damage bonus as the purview of DEX. So for example a Fighter with a STR 12(+1) and DEX 16(+3) would still have the +3 to attack and damage, but the range of the bow would no longer be the standard 150/600 but rather something like 120/480 (using a calculation of STR score x10/x40). I think this would model the old chin, cheek, jaw, ear standards that were used long ago. But the question would be does this add more complexity that is necessary.

Compositing should also make an appearance as treating bows with flexible materials like raw hide or even flexible bone was an extremely common practice during the bows hayday (just ask those Huns and Mongols). Although the exact mechanical benefit would be a bit hard to nail down. I would say possibly just a small boost in damage and a small boost in range. Compositing also made the bow "more durable" which would only matter in things like sundering, so not that big of a deal.

I also miss the old 2e way the damage die was based not on the bow but on the type of arrow used. But again, that adds in complexity that I think was purposefully avoided.

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

As far as realism goes, anything with more punch than a very light crossbow requires Str to wield under non-optimal conditions. Thrown weapons requires Str to have speed and accuracy. Non-light crossbow requires Str to load in a hurry -- there is a big difference between fighting for your life and sipping lemonade on an archery range. Bows that are more powerful than a child's rabbit hunting toy require shoulder Str to make accurate adjustments while dancing around in a skirmish.

There is no clean break between Str and Dex when it comes to doing genuine hard things.

The realistic reason that Str increases to hit in melee is not because one swings the sword faster. It is because melee is a full contact sport with a lot of shoving and battering to create an opening for the decisive sword swing. Dex based attacks and defenses would not work well in a 10' corridor when you need to stand your ground.

 

[Athinar]

They might not break, but they can certainly be lost Depending on the scarcity of the metal/wealth of the PCs, using mithril and adamantite on arrows instead of fine weapons and armour would be prohibitive/wasteful. A single master crafted arrow to enchant as an arrow of slaying, sure.. not so much for firing volleys though

Yes, they can be lost, but by using magic to locate them to recover them and kill the creature that took them, more EXP

Mithral and Adamantine can be found every where in the D&D setting, dime a dozen, you just have to kill to get the metal, more EXP

 

[Athinar]

I really don't like to add Strength to Bows because of the "Bounded Accuracy"

but if you group does it, then make sure the creatures they face do it to

 

[Diamabel]

Yes, they can be lost, but by using magic to locate them to recover them and kill the creature that took them, more EXP

Mithral and Adamantine can be found every where in the D&D setting, dime a dozen, you just have to kill to get the metal, more EXP

That is exactly the opposite impression that I get regarding the availability of Mithril and Adamantite- Take Bruenor's crafting of Aegis Fang, for example- The block of Mithril and the Adamantite rod were seeming heirlooms, reserved for something *truly* special.

 

[Greenstone.Walker]

Greatbow d10 req Str 15 200gp.
Ogre Bow d12 req Str 19 450gp

Perhaps also:
Longbow d8 req STR 12

With all of these weapons being two-handed heavy.

 

[Athinar]

I've never looked into it myself but I remember being told by someone that the main reason that they use aluminum arrows with compound bows is because the launching force would shatter a wooden arrow. It may have been complete BS, but it's believable BS.

aluminum arrows did not exist for bows with 150–160 lbf back in the day

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_longbow

Estimates for the draw of these bows varies considerably. Before the recovery of the Mary Rose, Count M. Mildmay Stayner, Recorder of the British Long Bow Society, estimated the bows of the Medieval period drew 90–110 pounds-force (400–490 newtons), maximum, and Mr. W.F. Paterson, Chairman of the Society of Archer-Antiquaries, believed the weapon had a supreme draw weight of only 80–90 lbf (360–400 N).[2] Other sources suggest significantly higher draw weights. The original draw forces of examples from the Mary Rose are estimated by Robert Hardy at 150–160 lbf (670–710 N) at a 30-inch (76.2 cm) draw length; the full range of draw weights was between 100–185 lbf (440–820 N).[9] The 30-inch (76.2 cm) draw length was used because that is the length allowed by the arrows commonly found on the Mary Rose.

A modern longbow's draw is typically 60 lbf (270 N) or less, and by modern convention measured at 28 inches (71.1 cm). Historically, hunting bows usually had draw weights of 50–60 lbf (220–270 N), which is enough for all but the very largest game and which most reasonably fit adults can manage with practice. Today, there are few modern longbowmen capable of using 180–185 lbf (800–820 N) bows accurately.[10][11]

 

[El Mahdi]

Equipment

Martial Ranged
Greatbow d10 req Str 15 200gp.
Ogre Bow d12 req Str 19 450gp

Strength increases damage without getting into a Dex+Str situation.

Perhaps also:
Longbow d8 req STR 12

With all of these weapons being two-handed heavy.

Sounds great, except for...as said before...drawing a bow does not require high overall body strength...which is what the D&D strength score is...and it still bases extra to-hit and damage on the character's strength, and not that of the bow.

All that's required to use such a bow is "specialized strength"; a strength developed in the muscles needed to draw a high-pull bow, and ONLY the muscles needed to draw a high-pull bow. The rest of the body's muscles are superfluous for using a bow.

Just because English Longbowmen used bows with draws as high as 150 to 200 pounds, does not mean they all had at least a 12 Strength or higher, or a crazy high strength like 15 for your Greatbow. Longbowmen, not being primarily melee fighters, likely had strength scores closer to the average strength of men in general: Strength 10 or 11 in D&D terms. They may have been in a little better shape, being part of a militia, but even that might only give a bump of one or two to their average strength. So, with an average strength among English Longbowmen around 10 to 12, just as many English Longbowmen had strengths below those numbers as those who had higher numbers.

That would mean that according to your strength requirements, a significant portion of England's Longbowmen weren't physically strong enough to do what they actually did in battle after battle, and successful strikes by them wouldn't do the amount of damage they were known for.

I guess the history books are wrong...


So, to do this right, require either a Feat or class build/archetype, OR the Strength requirement, and give the bow an independent strength score (not the character's strength score). This way, both characters that spend the years of training (Feat or class build/archetype), and characters that already have a high strength can utilize them, and you get the higher bonus to hit and damage.



Feats (adapted from [MENTION=8313]cperkins[/MENTION] )

MIGHTY ARCHER
Thanks to extensive practice with powerful bows (Mighty property), you gain the following benefits:
• You can utilize bows that you have proficiency with, that have the Mighty property with a STR score of up to 18.

MIGHTY ARCHER EXPERT
Thanks to extensive practice with mighty bows, you gain the following benefits:
• You can utilize bows that you have proficiency with, that have the Mighty property with a STR score of up to 20.
• You gain an extra attack when using the attack action on your turn for a ranged attack with shortbow or longbow that you have proficiency with, in addition to any extra attacks provided by your class.
• Being within 5 feet of a hostile creature doesn’t impose disadvantage on your ranged attack rolls.
• Before you make a ranged attack, you can choose to take a - 5 penalty to the attack roll. If the attack hits, you add +10 to the attack’s damage.


WEAPON PROPERTIES
New Property
Mighty. A shortbow or longbow with this property has it's own STR score. A character must either possess proficiency in bows with this property, or have an equal or higher STR score, to utilize them. You may add the STR bonus of your bow (if higher), instead of your own DEX bonus, to attack and damage rolls when attacking with a mighty bow. You may not add your own STR bonus (if higher than the bow) to attack and damage rolls. The range of any shortbow or longbow with this property is increased to 200/800. Damage dice are increased from 1d6 to 2d4, or 1d8 to 2d6. The price of shortbows or longbows with the Mighty property increase by 25gp for bows with a STR score of 12, with an additional 10gp for every two points of STR above that (+25gp for STR 12, +35gp for STR 14, +45gp for STR 16, +55gp for STR 18, +65gp for STR 20, etc.).




Some quotes about longbow training:

From the Historum History Discussion Forum http://historum.com/ and this thread in particular http://historum.com/medieval-byzantine-history/24934-how-did-english-longbowmen-train.html

(The original site this quote is attributed to is no longer accessible.)

For a long time I doubted people drawing 150 lb bows. Then I came across some pictures showing the Medieval method of pulling the bow. The common method of shooting a bow these days is the Victorian method. This is where you pull the bowstring back with the small, Rear Deltoid Muscle to the chin or eye and aim down the arrow-shaft. The main focus is accuracy. To pull a heavy bow you have to learn to shoot with the Medieval method. This method involves leaning forward in pulling the bowstring back with the larger Latissimus Dorsi Muscle while squatting down a bit for balance. As you straighten up your hand will naturally land by your ear-lobe. These are the same muscles you use to do a chin-up. So effectively you are doing a one handed chin-up into the bow.

In the Medieval method, the Latissimus Dorsi Muscles involved start under your arm and go all the way down near your waist. This muscle group is much larger then the pectoralis Muscles (chest). This muscle group is only second in size to the Quadricep Muscles group (legs). The Latissimus Dorsi Muscles also have a mechanical leverage advantage because of the way they are attached to the arm. There is a good deal of space between the joint and where the attach to the bone.

From Wikipedia - English Longbow - attributed to Dr. A.J. Stirland. Raising the Dead: the Skeleton Crew of Henry VIII's Great Ship the Mary Rose. (Chichester 2002).

Skeletons of longbow archers are recognisably adapted, with enlarged left arms and often bone spurs on left wrists, left shoulders and right fingers.

Also from Wikipedia - Acromion/Os acromiale:

In human anatomy, the Acromion (from Greek: akros, "highest", ōmos, "shoulder", plural: acromia) is a bony process on the scapula (shoulder blade). Together with the coracoid process it extends laterally over the shoulder joint. The acromion is a continuation of the scapular spine, and hooks over anteriorly. It articulates with the clavicle (collar bone) to form the acromioclavicular joint.

...

Os_acromiale

The acromion has four ossification centers called (from tip to base) pre-acromion, meso-acromion, meta-acromion, and basi-acromion. In most cases, the first three fuse at 15–18 years, whereas the base part fuses to the scapular spine at 12 years. However, in between 1% and 15% of cases, this osseous union fails and the acromion remains a separate bone. This condition is referred to as os acromiale, but rarely causes pain. Earlier estimates of its prevalence were as low as 1.4%, and this higher estimate was made by Sammarco in the year 2000, based on radiographic and anatomical studies.

This feature was common in skeletons recovered from the Mary Rose shipwreck [which carried a contingent of 300 archers]: it is thought that in those men, much archery practice from childhood on with the mediaeval war bow (which needs a pull three times as strong as the modern standard Olympic bow) pulled at the acromion so much that it prevented bony fusion of the acromion with the scapula.

And Wikipedia again, but attributed to Trevelyan, G. M. (2008). English Social History – A Survey of Six Centuries – Chaucer to Queen Victoria. Longman.:

From a record of how boys and men trained to use the bows with high draw weights from the reign of Henry VII.

...I had my bows bought me according to my age and strength, as I increased in them, so my bows were made bigger and bigger. For men shall never shoot well unless they be brought up to it.

 

[Athinar]

I agree, but I think the Feat "MIGHTY ARCHER EXPERT" is OP, reduce it some, it looks like you have added multiple Feats into one

Mighty Shortbow, Longbow or Crossbow; 25% increase in price for each point of Strength

Weapon Master Feat
• You can utilize bows that have the "Mighty" property; STR score of up to 20.
• You can utilize crossbows that have the "Mighty" property; STR score of up to 20.
• You can utilize Ballista with proficiency.
• You can utilize cannons with proficiency.

(you don't need to make a new feat)

Sharpshooter Feat

Crossbow Expert
• Being within 5 feet of a hostile creature doesn’t impose disadvantage on your ranged attack rolls.
• Before you make a ranged attack, you can choose to take a - 5 penalty to the attack roll. If the attack hits, you add +10 to the attack’s damage.

 

[BryonD]

MIGHTY ARCHER

Cool

How would you fit Crossbows into this?