D&D 5E Strength bows?

[Sunseeker]

The Feat isn't so powerful that you turn hand crossbows into glocks with bolts. The feat is to allow you to move and fire a crossbow in the same round, which is a big step up from being stuck in one spot as long as you want to use your crossbow.

perhaps I missed something, but I never saw anything wherein the loading property used your move.

Per the rules: Loading. Because of the time required to load this weapon, you can fire only one piece of ammunition from it when you use an action, bonus action or reaction to fire it, regardless of the number of attacks you can normally make.

There is no limitation on your ability to move during the turn in order to use such a weapon.

While I'm at it: Ammunition. You can use a weapon that has the ammunition property to make a ranged attack only if you have ammunition to fire from the weapon. Each time you attack with the weapon, you expend on piece of ammunition. Drawing the ammunition from a quiver, case or other container is part of the attack. At the end of the battle, you can recover half your expended ammunition by taking a minute to search the battlefield.

Now, the Hand Crossbow has the Ammunition, Light and Loading qualities. Therefore, both of the above rules apply to when using the Hand Crossbow. The Crossbow Expert feat allows you to ignore the loading property on crossbows with which you are proficient. Therefore I only need to regard the Ammunition (which covers the time requirement of drawing and firing the ammunition) and Light aspects of the weapon. I can disregard the attack limitation per turn thanks to being able to ignore the Loading property.

The Loading quality says nothing about movement while firing.

So yes, the Crossbow Expert feat is so powerful it lets you turn Hand Crossbows into glocks with bolts.

 

[Herr der Qual]

My bad, none of my characters have used crossbow because of the loading quality, which I had grown accustomed to Pathfinder's use of it, which restricted movement. The DM in our campaign treated it as such for the one character that uses a crossbow. Good to know. So yeah, Crossbow Expert is OP... still, I'd rule that a free hand is necessary to reload it. Unless your other weapon is a dagger and you pirate it (hold it between your teeth) while you reload

 

[Sunseeker]

My bad, none of my characters have used crossbow because of the loading quality, which I had grown accustomed to Pathfinder's use of it, which restricted movement. The DM in our campaign treated it as such for the one character that uses a crossbow. Good to know. So yeah, Crossbow Expert is OP... still, I'd rule that a free hand is necessary to reload it. Unless your other weapon is a dagger and you pirate it (hold it between your teeth) while you reload

Yes, I won't disagree that the Crossbow Expert feat is very powerful in comparison to other feats. But I don't feel that the damage from it's use makes much of a difference outside the early levels. Hand Crossbow is only 1d6, and you still need the Dual Wield feat in order to get your stat damage to the attack, and the Ranger, who can pair each attack with Hunters Mark, adding an additional 1d6 to the attack, ends up with only 3 attacks (two in the Attack action, 1 in the Bonus action) for 2d6+stat dmg each, avg=32 dmg per turn (I think i did my math right). That's pretty potent at low levels, but by the time you get to level 5, much level level 8, it really starts to fall behind most of the spellcasters, and most damager-fighters start to take the lead by 10th level when they get their 3rd attack per round (and can use Greatswords (2d6+stat) with it). Barbarians also dump out damage on par with that from at least level 4.

IMO, doing an avg 32dmg per turn really isn't that much once you factor in the feat cost.

 

[Paraxis]

Hand Crossbow is only 1d6, and you still need the Dual Wield feat in order to get your stat damage to the attack

That part is not right by my understanding.

TWO-WEAPON FIGHTING
When you take the Attack action and attack with a light melee weapon that you’re holding in one hand, you can use a bonus action to attack with a different light melee weapon that you’re holding in the other hand. You don’t add your ability modifier to the damage of the bonus attack, unless that modifier is negative.

Two weapon fighting is it's own thing, and only applies to when you use two melee weapons. Much like the bonus action attack with polearm master feat you can apply your ability modifier to the damage of the bonus action attack from crossbow expert.

 

[Sunseeker]

That part is not right by my understanding.

TWO-WEAPON FIGHTING
When you take the Attack action and attack with a light melee weapon that you’re holding in one hand, you can use a bonus action to attack with a different light melee weapon that you’re holding in the other hand. You don’t add your ability modifier to the damage of the bonus attack, unless that modifier is negative.

Two weapon fighting is it's own thing, and only applies to when you use two melee weapons. Much like the bonus action attack with polearm master feat you can apply your ability modifier to the damage of the bonus action attack from crossbow expert.

You're right, I confused the Dual-Weapon Fighting feat with the class feature: Two-Weapon Fighting, which is what actually lets you add your stat modifier to your offhand attack.

 

[El Mahdi]

I don't disagree with anything you said.
But when you start bumping up "MIGHTY" bow damage, it questions the damage of a machine loaded crossbow.

I understand, and after further thinking on it, I agree with you. I think the thing to do is just remove the increased damage dice for the Mighty property, and use their original damage dice as is.

I'm still sticking with the replacement of the bow's STR score for attack and damage though (if higher than one's own DEX score). A Mighty Bow (Strength Bow) would have greater penetration ability, so if the bow's STR score is higher than one's DEX, then I think it should supersede...at least if one wants it to. If someone decides they want to use the lower score, that's their choice; though to me, that seems like foolishly handicapping one's self.

This is still Over Powered...

I understood what you were saying the first time. It really wasn't necessary to completely repost your argument, or shout/bold-highlight your points.

And I still disagree with you.

The Mighty Archer Expert is no more powerful than the Crossbow Expert Feat.

Gaining an extra attack from the Mighty Archer Feat is effectively no different than the Crossbow Expert Feat, which also results in an increased rate of fire.

Not to mention that it takes two Feats for Mighty Bows (or three Feats for non-martial classes wanting to use a Mighty Longbow), and only one Feat for Crossbow Archer (since crossbows are simple weapons, and don't require a separate feat for proficiency).

The Feat cost more than makes up for any perception of overpowered-ness, and in-my-opinion, effectively flips the onus in the other direction.

I will however, add a blurb requiring proficiency in the basic bow prior to taking the Mighty Archer Feat.


So, absolute, beyond-a-doubt, I'm-done-with-this, final version:


MIGHTY ARCHER
Prerequisite: Proficiency with the base version of the Mighty Bow (either shortbow, longbow, or both).
Thanks to extensive specialized practice with powerful bows (Mighty property), you gain the following benefits:
• You can utilize bows that you have proficiency with, that have the Mighty property with a STR score of up to 18.
• You gain an extra attack when using the attack action on your turn, for a ranged attack with a shortbow or longbow that you have proficiency with, in addition to any extra attacks provided by your class.

MIGHTY ARCHER EXPERT
Prerequisite: Must possess the Mighty Archer Feat.
Thanks to further specialized training with powerful bows (Mighty property), you gain the following benefits:
• You can utilize bows that you have proficiency with, that have the Mighty property with a STR score of up to 20.
• Being within 5 feet of a hostile creature doesn’t impose disadvantage on your ranged attack rolls.
• Before you make a ranged attack, you can choose to take a - 5 penalty to the attack roll. If the attack hits, you add +10 to the attack’s damage.


WEAPON PROPERTIES
New Property
Mighty. A shortbow or longbow with this property has it's own STR score. A character must either possess proficiency in bows with this property, or have an equal or higher STR score, to utilize them. You may add the STR bonus of your bow (if higher), instead of your own DEX bonus, to attack and damage rolls when attacking with a mighty bow. You may not add your own STR bonus (if higher than the bow) to attack and damage rolls. The range of any shortbow or longbow with this property is increased to 200/800. The price of shortbows or longbows with the Mighty property increase by 25gp for bows with a STR score of 12, with an additional 10gp for every two points of STR above that (+25gp for STR 12, +35gp for STR 14, +45gp for STR 16, +55gp for STR 18, +65gp for STR 20, etc.).




Cheers

 

[El Mahdi]

Okay. There is a lot of misunderstanding going on here about dual-wielding hand crossbows. Here's the comprehensive, RAW explanation.

First, Dual Wielding hand crossbows have absolutely nothing to do with Two-Weapon Fighting, the Two-Weapon Fighting class feature, or the Dual Wielder Feat.

• Under Two-Weapon Fighting on pg. 195, it specifies this is for melee weapons only.
• The Two-Weapon Fighting class feature (Fighter and Ranger only), states "When you engage in two-weapon fighting, you can add your ability modifier to the damage of the second attack." This is referring to the Two-Weapon Fighting on pg. 195, meaning it still only applies to melee weapons.
• The Dual Wielder Feat also clearly states that it is for melee weapons only.

Second, yes the ammunition property says exactly what [MENTION=13009]Paraxis[/MENTION] and [MENTION=93444]shidaku[/MENTION] stated. However, everybody seems to keep overlooking part of the Crossbow Expert Feat wording. Specifically:

• When you use the Attack action and attack with a one-handed weapon, you can use a bonus action to attack with a LOADED hand crossbow you are holding.

Meaning, quite clearly, the hand crossbow needs to ALREADY BE LOADED!

This also implies, along with the load property description focusing on time and not free-hands, and also along with common sense, that you cannot load a crossbow with the same hand that's holding it.


Now, as said before, if one wants to ignore this, one most certainly can. However, do not persist under the illusion that doing so is supported by RAW. It is not.


Cheers

 

[BryonD]

I understand, and after further thinking on it, I agree with you. I think the thing to do is just remove the increased damage dice for the Mighty property, and use their original damage dice as is.

I'm still sticking with the replacement of the bow's STR score for attack and damage though (if higher than one's own DEX score). A Mighty Bow (Strength Bow) would have greater penetration ability, so if the bow's STR score is higher than one's DEX, then I think it should supersede...at least if one wants it to. If someone decides they want to use the lower score, that's their choice; though to me, that seems like foolishly handicapping one's self.

It is funny that you answered this way, because I think we are converging.
I've changed my mind on using DEX for "to hit". (old school thinking takes times to evolve)

Using STR obviously makes sense in a 5E context.
A high DEX char already has the damage bonus, so there is little point to using this bow. (range aside)
Your version supports the image of the big guy (without feat) or trained normal guy (with feat) using a powerful bow to compensate for less pure precision.

 

[Paraxis]

However, everybody seems to keep overlooking part of the Crossbow Expert Feat wording. Specifically:

• When you use the Attack action and attack with a one-handed weapon, you can use a bonus action to attack with a LOADED hand crossbow you are holding.

Meaning, quite clearly, the hand crossbow needs to ALREADY BE LOADED!

It has been established by the game designers that the timing of the bonus action doesn't matter as long as the trigger is met on your turn. For example you can use your off hand melee attack vs the enemy adjacent to you as a bonus action, move, make your attack action, open a door, move again.

So you could take your bonus action attack with the hand crossbow before the attack with the one handed weapon.

Example.
Turn order: While holding a single hand crossbow and using a shield.

1. Bonus Action attack with the loaded hand crossbow.
2. Move 10'
3. Attack action with the same hand crossbow, reloading as part of the attack action, as per rules under ammunition.
4. Move some more.
5. Use your free interact with object for the turn to load the hand crossbow so it is ready for your next turn.

Turn order: While holding two hand crossbows, assuming both are unloaded for some reason.

1. Interact with object for free and load off hand crossbow
2. Attack with main hand crossbow, loading is part of the attack action.
3. Bonus action attack with off hand crossbow.
4. Repeat next turn.

Hand crossbows are not two-handed weapons, it never states anywhere in the rules at all or even applies that you need two hands to reload one. If people have a hard time imagining reloading the crossbow one handed, I would look to over the top action movies for inspiration, you tube videos of one handed people doing amazing tasks, or just try and use your imagination and think that might be a brace of bolts and cocking mechanism on the characters hip maybe built into the holster for the pistol.

 

[Sunseeker]

Okay. There is a lot of misunderstanding going on here about dual-wielding hand crossbows. Here's the comprehensive, RAW explanation.*snip*
Cheers

Where does the Loading property focus on time and free hands? The Loading property mentions neither.

What's interesting about two-weapon fighting only applying to melee is you get the same result with the Crossbow Expert feat. The feat gives you a bonus action and allows you to ignore the normal limitation of one shot per weapon. The Ammunition property states that drawing and firing (in the middle of which would be loading or knocking) are part of a single attack. Ignoring the Loading property simply lets you do it multiple times per turn.

On that, if we are single-wielding a hand-crossbow we get one attack per attack allowed by our class (1 at first, 2 at 5th, etc...) and one bonus attack, this also satisfies the "free hand" requirement you keep mentioning that I keep not seeing in the rules. With dual-wielding hand-crossbows we get exactly the same result X attacks per our class limitations and one bonus attack, this time thanks to having an offhand weapon instead of the effect of Crossbow Expert.

It is literally the EXACT SAME RESULT.

Also, I did read the two-weapon fighting rules and I have no idea why it's applied to melee only. I suppose it could be the "free hand" assumption you're going on but I've yet to find that explicitly stated. I think I'll ignore that, since dual-hand-crossbowing is pretty epic.