miniaturehoarder
First Post
If thats somehow an issue, it looks like DMs are letting folks reload without having a free hand.This:
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D&D 5E Strength bows?
El Mahdi
Muad'Dib of the Anauroch
For the most part, Crossbows wouldn't fit into this. Crossbows already have their own feat (Crossbow Expert), and a feat that can be used with crossbows (Sharpshooter).
Learning to use a Mighty Bow (a powerful composite shortbow, an English longbow, etc.) is very different...and harder...than learning to use a crossbow. Some aspects learned from using Mighty Bows do cross over when using Crossbows, and some aspects learned from using Crossbows do cross over when using Mighty Bows; but overall, training in Crossbows does not provide training in how to use Mighty Bows...and it shouldn't.
Historically...in real life...Mighty Bows like the English Longbow, took almost a decade of practice with them to gain real proficiency; to gain a level of proficiency suitable for the battle field. Crossbows could be learned by anybody, and very quickly. This aspect is the primary reason why crossbows are simple weapons, and why they were decried as evil weapons, with many governments and the church oft attempting to ban them.
However, parts of the feats, like the one's they are adapted from (specifically Crossbow Expert), are not written with language specific to Mighty Bows, and therefore should be allowed to be applied to crossbows also. I think the Crossbow Expert Feat was purposely written that way, or if it wasn't, is at least my interpretation. The parts that are non-specific are:
• Being within 5 feet of a hostile creature doesn’t impose disadvantage on your ranged attack rolls.
• Before you make a ranged attack, you can choose to take a - 5 penalty to the attack roll. If the attack hits, you add +10 to the attack’s damage.
...which are exactly the same as from the Crossbow Expert feat. If you have learned these aspects with Mighty Bows, I see no reason why you wouldn't be able to use them also with Crossbows, and vice-versa. The only parts you don't learn this way are:
• You ignore the loading quality of crossbows with which you are proficient.
For this aspect, you need to actually take the Crossbow Expert Feat...as it should be. Nothing about learning to use a Mighty Bow gives you expert proficiency and increased speed with loading a Crossbow.
And...
• You gain an extra attack when using the attack action on your turn, for a ranged attack with a shortbow or longbow that you have proficiency with, in addition to any extra attacks provided by your class.
For this aspect, you need to actually take the Mighty Archer Feat; and it should never...ever...EVER apply to Crossbows. Turning Crossbows into medieval machineguns completely negates the uniqueness of English Longbows and Composite Shortbows. Which is why the Master Archer Feat specifically states it's for use only with shortbows and longbows, and why the Mighty property is specifically limited to shortbows and longbows.
There are a few points here I'll address, though possibly not in the order of presentation.
First, there's no such thing as a Mighty Crossbow; or more accurately, Crossbows as constructed are already Mighty Bows...though this would by no means provide proficiency with Mighty Bows.
Crossbows (with maybe the exception of hand-crossbows) cannot be drawn and cocked simply by hand; they require at least the use of a foot and both hands to draw, or mechanical assistance. The bows of crossbows are made from materials that could not be drawn, no matter how much training, in the manner of a shortbow or longbow. They are already made from far heavier and stiffer wood than even an English Longbow or an Eastern Composite Shortbow, or not even made from wood at all (steel...mithril, adamantium, etc.).
Second, training to use cannons and ballista also have nothing to do with the specialized training for using Mighty Bows. The skills simply, for the most part, do not cross.
Third, I went with a price increase for every two points of strength simply because making a bow with an odd-numbered strength would be a waste of money (it doesn't provide a bonus increase). Effectively, the only numbers that matter for these bows will be the even numbered STR scores.
Also, I wanted to make it a flat amount so it's easier to figure out the price - simple addition. Having people figure out percentages, especially when no other rules or mechanics in the game use percentages, seems like adding complexity when it's not necessary and introduces inconsistency to the structure of the rules.
Fourth, I don't see anything in the Mighty Archer Feats that steps on or duplicates the Sharp Shooter Feat. And the Sharp Shooter Feat can still apply unchanged.
Fifth, I think the Weapon Master Feat is a poor fit for what we are trying to do. Primarily, learning to use a Mighty Bow (English Longbow, Eastern Composite Shortbow, etc.) is a very specialized training; training that doesn't include training in other weapons. It makes no sense why learning how to use a Mighty Bow, would also mean you suddenly know how to use three other totally unrelated weapons.
Personally, I think the Weapon Master Feat is poorly envisioned and written. I understand its purpose, to allow characters to learn weapons not provided by their class, but it does have issues. One, it gives proficiency with four weapons mostly because to not do so, would leave the Feat vastly under-powered relative to what other Feats provide. That's a purely mechanical comparison and mechanical solution, devoid of connection to any real concept or higher truth; and I personally despise such machinations. And two, it can provide proficiency with completely unrelated weapons all at once...something that just doesn't make sense. "
Master" evokes "Expertise"..."Specialization"..."Exceptional"...and not merely Proficient. I imagine it wasn't titled "Weapon Proficiency", despite the fact that this is all it is, because that doesn't sound "Cool"...doesn't fit with the titles of the other Feats. However, fixing that Feat goes beyond the scope of this thread, and beyond the scope of what I want to delve into at this time (as it would likely mean for me, digging in and revising almost all of the Feats). So, I'm just going to ignore Weapons Master for now.
Lastly, I see what you're saying about the Expert feat, though I don't think it's over-powered. I do however feel that it has too much "stuff" in it.
I'm going to shift the increased attacks aspect to the first feat: Mighty Archer. I think that would better model the extra attacks that such weapons provided in earlier editions, give the Mighty Archer feat a little bit more than just simple proficiency, and even model the role of such weapons in real life - that of the heavy machine-gun of the medieval battlefield. The increased rate of fire was the main advantage over crossbows, while the advantage of crossbows was similar force/damage and range, but was easy for anyone to learn and use.
So, revised...and for me...final versions.
MIGHTY ARCHER
Thanks to extensive specialized practice with powerful bows (Mighty property), you gain the following benefits:
• You have proficiency with bows that have the Mighty property with a STR score of up to 18.
• You gain an extra attack when using the attack action on your turn, for a ranged attack with a shortbow or longbow that you have proficiency with, in addition to any extra attacks provided by your class.
MIGHTY ARCHER EXPERT
Thanks to further specialized training with powerful bows (Mighty property), you gain the following benefits:
• You can utilize bows that you have proficiency with, that have the Mighty property with a STR score of up to 20.
• Being within 5 feet of a hostile creature doesn’t impose disadvantage on your ranged attack rolls.
• Before you make a ranged attack, you can choose to take a - 5 penalty to the attack roll. If the attack hits, you add +10 to the attack’s damage.
WEAPON PROPERTIES
New Property
Mighty. A shortbow or longbow with this property has it's own STR score. A character must either possess proficiency in bows with this property, or have an equal or higher STR score, to utilize them. You may add the STR bonus of your bow (if higher), instead of your own DEX bonus, to attack and damage rolls when attacking with a mighty bow. You may not add your own STR bonus (if higher than the bow) to attack and damage rolls. The range of any shortbow or longbow with this property is increased to 200/800. Damage dice are increased from 1d6 to 2d4, or 1d8 to 2d6. The price of shortbows or longbows with the Mighty property increase by 25gp for bows with a STR score of 12, with an additional 10gp for every two points of STR above that (+25gp for STR 12, +35gp for STR 14, +45gp for STR 16, +55gp for STR 18, +65gp for STR 20, etc.).
Cheers.
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S
Sunseeker
Guest
All you need for that is Crossbow Expert, which lets you ignore the "loading" property of any crossbow,it also lets you make a bonus attack with a loaded crossbow after making a one-handed attack. A lvl1 human can take this feat and make the above character right off the bat, everyone else has to wait till lvl 4, which isn't that bad. A first level human can dual-wield hand-crossbows (which are light weapons), ignore their loading property and get a bonus attack with their offhand crossbow.
It's not an issue at all, it's RAW.
Herr der Qual
First Post
See I interpret that as it doesn't take as long to reload a crossbow, not that you can reload telekinetically. That's why it says you can only use a loaded crossbow as a secondary attack. You still need a free hand to reload. RAW.
El Mahdi
Muad'Dib of the Anauroch
I disagree, by both common sense and RAW.
The Loading property specifically states "Because of the time required...", and focuses on that and nothing else.
Having a Feat that states "You ignore the loading quality of crossbows with which you are proficient.", means you ignore the "Time" restriction.
It most certainly does not negate the common sense element that one must have a hand available to draw, cock, and load the weapon.
Besides, Rulings and not Rules would trump that misconception also; just as much as it covers you or any other DM from ignoring this aspect in favor of "The Rule of Cool"...
But what [MENTION=6788790]miniaturehoarder[/MENTION] said is most certainly RAW.
So, based on the picture, if that character had the Crossbow Expert Feat, and they had a reason for a bonus action, then yes, they can shoot both hand crossbows in the same round.
However, they are not going to be able to reload BOTH hand crossbows for their next turn.
They can, however, by RAW (and if they have Crossbow Expert), drop one of the hand crossbows and reload the other (ignoring the loading factor/time), and even shoot with that same hand crossbow twice in the next round (if they again have a reason for a bonus action, and again because they can ignore the loading factor/time).
They however, cannot reload a crossbow if they don't have a hand available to do so. That's just common sense.
Wield it and shoot it one handed? Yes
Load it one handed? No
BryonD
Hero
I don't disagree with anything you said.
But when you start bumping up "MIGHTY" bow damage, it questions the damage of a machine loaded crossbow.
You could simply leave RAW Xbows as-is and assume (as I believe is intended) that the default heavy xbow may be loaded with just two hands and a foot.
Then introduce machine loaded xbows with 2d6 2d8 whatever damage. (I'd never allow rapid loading short of expensive magic)
I'd also still limit attack bonus to the Character's DEX mod always. I realize combining the two (DEX to hit STR damage) is not consistent with 5E so far. But STR bows have already been an outlier in D&D before for working this way. And Mighty bows are changing the system either way.
Note that as written I could make a STR 10 DEX 10 Wizard, and spend one feat to get TWO Prof+4 to hit / 2d6+4 attacks on top of being a high INT / high CON spellcaster.
Not a problem with a group of cool players. But you could from a min/max POV.
This is still Over Powered and some of the extra attacks don't fit the RAW and this can be done with Feats that are already exist and can be crossed over to the Crossbow
MIGHTY ARCHER
Thanks to extensive specialized practice with powerful bows (Mighty property), you gain the following benefits:
• You have proficiency with bows that have the Mighty property with a STR score of up to 18.
• You gain an extra attack when using the attack action on your turn, for a ranged attack with a shortbow or longbow that you have proficiency with, in addition to any extra attacks provided by your class. OP
MIGHTY ARCHER EXPERT
Thanks to further specialized training with powerful bows (Mighty property), you gain the following benefits:
• You can utilize bows that you have proficiency with, that have the Mighty property with a STR score of up to 20.
• Being within 5 feet of a hostile creature doesn’t impose disadvantage on your ranged attack rolls.
not part of the Sharpshooter so you combined 2 feats into one OP
• Before you make a ranged attack, you can choose to take a - 5 penalty to the attack roll. If the attack hits, you add +10 to the attack’s damage.
WEAPON PROPERTIES
New Property
Mighty. A shortbow or longbow with this property has it's own STR score. A character must either possess proficiency in bows with this property, or have an equal or higher STR score, to utilize them. You may add the STR bonus of your bow (if higher), instead of your own DEX bonus, to attack and damage rolls when attacking with a mighty bow. You may not add your own STR bonus (if higher than the bow) to attack and damage rolls. The range of any shortbow or longbow with this property is increased to 200/800. Damage dice are increased from 1d6 to 2d4, or 1d8 to 2d6. The price of shortbows or longbows with the Mighty property increase by 25gp for bows with a STR score of 12, with an additional 10gp for every two points of STR above that (+25gp for STR 12, +35gp for STR 14, +45gp for STR 16, +55gp for STR 18, +65gp for STR 20, etc.).
OVER POWERED: MIGHTY ARCHER EXPERT
• You gain an extra attack when using the attack action on your turn, for a ranged attack with a shortbow or longbow that you have proficiency with, in addition to any extra attacks provided by your class. Please add Vorpal, Dragon Slayer and +6 to hit and Damage
Use the price quoted in the Post Mighty "Property" (I like it the Weapon Properties) but not the Feats, use existing Feats
Weapon Master Feat
• You can utilize bows that have the "Mighty" property; STR score of up to 20.
• You can utilize crossbows that have the "Mighty" property; STR score of up to 20.
• choose another weapon.
• choose another weapon.
Sharpshooter Feat or Crossbow Expert (will not list the Feats descriptions, they are in the Players Handbook)
MIGHTY ARCHER
Thanks to extensive specialized practice with powerful bows (Mighty property), you gain the following benefits:
• You have proficiency with bows that have the Mighty property with a STR score of up to 18.
• You gain an extra attack when using the attack action on your turn, for a ranged attack with a shortbow or longbow that you have proficiency with, in addition to any extra attacks provided by your class. OP
MIGHTY ARCHER EXPERT
Thanks to further specialized training with powerful bows (Mighty property), you gain the following benefits:
• You can utilize bows that you have proficiency with, that have the Mighty property with a STR score of up to 20.
• Being within 5 feet of a hostile creature doesn’t impose disadvantage on your ranged attack rolls.
not part of the Sharpshooter so you combined 2 feats into one OP
• Before you make a ranged attack, you can choose to take a - 5 penalty to the attack roll. If the attack hits, you add +10 to the attack’s damage.
WEAPON PROPERTIES
New Property
Mighty. A shortbow or longbow with this property has it's own STR score. A character must either possess proficiency in bows with this property, or have an equal or higher STR score, to utilize them. You may add the STR bonus of your bow (if higher), instead of your own DEX bonus, to attack and damage rolls when attacking with a mighty bow. You may not add your own STR bonus (if higher than the bow) to attack and damage rolls. The range of any shortbow or longbow with this property is increased to 200/800. Damage dice are increased from 1d6 to 2d4, or 1d8 to 2d6. The price of shortbows or longbows with the Mighty property increase by 25gp for bows with a STR score of 12, with an additional 10gp for every two points of STR above that (+25gp for STR 12, +35gp for STR 14, +45gp for STR 16, +55gp for STR 18, +65gp for STR 20, etc.).
OVER POWERED: MIGHTY ARCHER EXPERT
• You gain an extra attack when using the attack action on your turn, for a ranged attack with a shortbow or longbow that you have proficiency with, in addition to any extra attacks provided by your class. Please add Vorpal, Dragon Slayer and +6 to hit and Damage
Use the price quoted in the Post Mighty "Property" (I like it the Weapon Properties) but not the Feats, use existing Feats
Weapon Master Feat
• You can utilize bows that have the "Mighty" property; STR score of up to 20.
• You can utilize crossbows that have the "Mighty" property; STR score of up to 20.
• choose another weapon.
• choose another weapon.
Sharpshooter Feat or Crossbow Expert (will not list the Feats descriptions, they are in the Players Handbook)
S
Sunseeker
Guest
That completely negates the purpose of the Crossbow Expert feat. Also: if I gave a doop how things worked in real life, I wouldn't be playing a fantasy game. I don't feel my immersion in a FANTASY game is violated at all by having FANTASY elements.
Herr der Qual
First Post
The Feat isn't so powerful that you turn hand crossbows into glocks with bolts. The feat is to allow you to move and fire a crossbow in the same round, which is a big step up from being stuck in one spot as long as you want to use your crossbow. Also, the entire game is a Fantasy element, by the logic of your retort all rogues should be able to walk on cielings, wizards should have unlimited spells in a day, the reality element is meant to give us something to tie ourselves to, I love D&D and video games, but I don't play my video games with god mode on and I don't want to play D&D that way either.
Hand crossbow: 75 gp 1d6 piercing 3 lb. Ammunition (range 30/120), light, loading
Ammunition. You can use a weapon that has the ammunition property to make a ranged attack only if you have ammunition to fire from the weapon. Each time you attack with the weapon, you expend one piece of ammunition. Drawing the ammunition from a quiver, case, or other container is part of the attack. At the end of the battle, you can recover half your expended ammunition by taking a minute to search the battlefield.
A hand crossbow is not a two-handed weapon, drawing the ammunition is part of the attack.
That all adds up to if you remove the loading property by having the crossbow master feat, firing and reloading the crossbow each time you attack with it even if both hands are full.
Ammunition. You can use a weapon that has the ammunition property to make a ranged attack only if you have ammunition to fire from the weapon. Each time you attack with the weapon, you expend one piece of ammunition. Drawing the ammunition from a quiver, case, or other container is part of the attack. At the end of the battle, you can recover half your expended ammunition by taking a minute to search the battlefield.
A hand crossbow is not a two-handed weapon, drawing the ammunition is part of the attack.
That all adds up to if you remove the loading property by having the crossbow master feat, firing and reloading the crossbow each time you attack with it even if both hands are full.
