Level Up (A5E) Strength vs Dexterity imbalance cannot be solved without addressing the Melee vs Ranged Imbalance.

[The Crimson Binome]

That's not a real-life experienced archer. This is a demigod in real life. +4 prof doesn't happen until level 9. A real life experienced archer should be judged as a level 1 dnd character.

Your position is that a real life experienced archer is only 10% more likely to hit a target, relative to someone who doesn't know how to use a bow at all?

 

[CubicsRube]

Your position is that a real life experienced archer is only 10% more likely to hit a target, relative to someone who doesn't know how to use a bow at all?

Honestly I'm not really engaging in the conversation with them any more. I think getting into the proficiency in 5e vs real life skills is a well worn argument here and moves away from the intention of the post, so I'm done following that line.

It's fine if people have different points of view, but the hyperbole/looking for a fight I'm not interested in.

 

[tetrasodium]

melee tends to have +2 ac over ranged and tends to do better damage before feats.

studded leather is 12+dex with a character dex cap of 20 for 17ac. Plate is 18+nothing. That's only 1 point.

If you are kiting that typically means your allies are being hit and focused on. Great individual plan. Poor plan for the group.

I agree that ranged should have to give something up - that something does not have to be damage.

Only if they are not also kiting. That limits it to every caster with a ranged cantrip, fighter, rogue, cleric, bard, paladin, & so on who ever pickup evem a short bow. When you've got a 80/320ft range simple weapon shorbtow or 150/600 martial longbow that allows you to move your full speed & take a full attack action round after round with no penalties you as a heavy armor paladin don't need to be good at it if half or more of the group is telling you to pull out your bow & shoot with them. Yes there are times the melees will run in, but when the longbow itself is 150ft range & average move speed is 30 those need to be pretty beefy just to reach the party & if a weapon category is designed to regularly fast forward to "and they run away" or "and they hole up behind the walls... what's that you decide to lay siege?..." the weapon design is flatly broken.

As to giving up "something" other than damage... No it doesn't need to be damage but history has shown effective things in the past like range increments at ranges that start imposing penalties when shooting from ranges much beyond a "normal" dungeon crawl sized room/hallway to prevent it from breaking things outside & damage/having to be MAD with strength to damage are an effective combo... you don't seem to be suggesting anything else other than "not that", are you able to elaborate on that "something" yet?

In reallife, the farthest accurate shooting is just under 1000 feet. For the sake of (theater of the mind) round numbers 1000 feet ( ≈ 300 meters) is fine for a "bow shot".

In game, the bow effectively has unlimited range, in most combat encounters.

In theater of mind, if one can see them, one can probably shoot them.

On a battle grid, if they fit on a grid, one can probably shoot them.

Mostly, anything is within reach of a bow.

on a good enough vtt like a tvbox running arkenforge you can model 5e ranges & more probably squares up to floating point range was estimated max) & it's a nightmare because "it doesn't fit on the battlemat" is no longer something to shut that down.

As to the record?... While true that The farthest accurate shot in archery under World Archery conditions is 283.47 m (930.04 ft), achieved by Matt Stutzman (USA) at the TPC Craig Ranch, McKinney, Texas, USA on 9 December 2015... It's not anywhere approaching what ranged combatants do in d&d. @Stalker0 that perfect conditions tine etc doesn't even apply to that situation, it was on a completely different level & used a "Compound Foot Bow"

Spoiler: Spoiler 'lert here is the bow used that day

'nuff said.

Fair points, but lets not also forget that the best archer in this world is going to be mediocre at best by the standards of a world with high level Fighters.

ETA:
Why would charge make you harder to hit? In all previous editions where it made any difference at all it made you easier to hit.

_
glass.

No.. See spoiler above. That's not even a freaking weapon in d&d & I guarantee that limb is probably on par with a strength 20 arm minimum.....

 

[Phoebasss]

Your position is that a real life experienced archer is only 10% more likely to hit a target, relative to someone who doesn't know how to use a bow at all?

I mean, in DnD, that's just how it works. The d20's inherent randomness coupled with 5e's number squishing makes it so.

 

[FrogReaver]

studded leather is 12+dex with a character dex cap of 20 for 17ac. Plate is 18+nothing. That's only 1 point.



Only if they are not also kiting. That limits it to every caster with a ranged cantrip, fighter, rogue, cleric, bard, paladin, & so on who ever pickup evem a short bow. When you've got a 80/320ft range simple weapon shorbtow or 150/600 martial longbow that allows you to move your full speed & take a full attack action round after round with no penalties you as a heavy armor paladin don't need to be good at it if half or more of the group is telling you to pull out your bow & shoot with them. Yes there are times the melees will run in, but when the longbow itself is 150ft range & average move speed is 30 those need to be pretty beefy just to reach the party & if a weapon category is designed to regularly fast forward to "and they run away" or "and they hole up behind the walls... what's that you decide to lay siege?..." the weapon design is flatly broken.

As to giving up "something" other than damage... No it doesn't need to be damage but history has shown effective things in the past like range increments at ranges that start imposing penalties when shooting from ranges much beyond a "normal" dungeon crawl sized room/hallway to prevent it from breaking things outside & damage/having to be MAD with strength to damage are an effective combo... you don't seem to be suggesting anything else other than "not that", are you able to elaborate on that "something" yet?



on a good enough vtt like a tvbox running arkenforge you can model 5e ranges & more probably squares up to floating point range was estimated max) & it's a nightmare because "it doesn't fit on the battlemat" is no longer something to shut that down.

As to the record?... While true that The farthest accurate shot in archery under World Archery conditions is 283.47 m (930.04 ft), achieved by Matt Stutzman (USA) at the TPC Craig Ranch, McKinney, Texas, USA on 9 December 2015... It's not anywhere approaching what ranged combatants do in d&d. @Stalker0 that perfect conditions tine etc doesn't even apply to that situation, it was on a completely different level & used a "Compound Foot Bow"

Spoiler: Spoiler 'lert here is the bow used that day

View attachment 125148

'nuff said.


No.. See spoiler above. That's not even a freaking weapon in d&d & I guarantee that limb is probably on par with a strength 20 arm minimum.....

please stop replying to me on this topic. This makes the third time I’ve asked.

 

[Leatherhead]

Sure, but I thought it would be a good opportunity to 'share the wealth' and boost another stat, like INT or WIS.

Put it on INT, WIS is already useful outside of class features.

 

[FrogReaver]

Put it on INT, WIS is already useful outside of class features.

lol... let’s the buff the wizard... that’s exactly what advanc e 5e needs...

 

[Leatherhead]

lol... let’s the buff the wizard... that’s exactly what advanc e 5e needs...

Ideally, they would address those kinds of problems elsewhere (In the spell lists and spells themselves, which undoubtedly need work.)
But honestly, Warlocks are the new broken.

 

[FrogReaver]

Ideally, they would address those kinds of problems elsewhere (In the spell lists and spells themselves, which undoubtedly need work.)
But honestly, Warlocks are the new broken.

I don’t see a major rewrite of all the spells and spell lists in the cards....

 

[tetrasodium]

Put it on INT, WIS is already useful outside of class features.

I ran a campaign starting at zero up to low teens where I used int for initiative & it went ok. We did 3d6 in order but reroll the whole array if you don't get 2 stats over 15. It didn't really help the evoker wizard much at all but was at least somewhat interesting in that the dexrogue didn't almost always go firstish. Since it's relevant int across the group was 15 on a druid, 13 scorlock , 11 rogue, 18 wiz, 15pally. In nearly any other game using normall stat generation noboody would have played the wizard & everyone would have an 8 int making it not very interesting. As you note, despite @FrogReaver's attempts to claim otherwise wizards just aren't that impressive in 5e compared to warlock & scorlock.

*Got it from one of coleville's videos... While it made for some interesting & unusual class choices forcing players outside their norms I'll probably not try it again in stock 5e as it made for some really powerful scorlocks in the group & the only characters who remained interesting to the end had a 3 in dex(fighter) or a 6 con(paladin).