Stronghold and taxes

[Xeriar]

I'm not trying to screw the PCs out of money, but I am trying to assess some sort of collection for coming into the ownership of a rather nice building in a good part of town that must have some value to be taxed by the local government for them to operate.

What's the property tax rate where you live? Around here it's hovering around .75%, depending.

Of course, it depends on a large number of factors - the government could probably tax up to 5% without breaking the business, but that can be counterproductive and sap funds from the economy and therefore more lucrative taxes...

 

[S'mon]

What's the property tax rate where you live? Around here it's hovering around .75%, depending.

Of course, it depends on a large number of factors - the government could probably tax up to 5% without breaking the business, but that can be counterproductive and sap funds from the economy and therefore more lucrative taxes...

CurrentlyI pay £400 on a £225,000 property, but that's unusually low - it'll be £600 next year, and still the lowest rate in the UK. Where I used to live it was £900 on a £40,000 property.
However, medieval taxes were mostly on assessed-wealth whereas modern taxes in UK are mostly on turnover (sales tax, VAT, income tax) which require a much more complex infrastructure to implement. Medieval taxes AFAIK tended to be done yearly just after harvest. Still, if you owned your property freehold (ie the baron didn't claim ownership of the land), property taxes would probably be light if any; feudal lords got their income from their land rents, mostly.

For a D&D world, perhaps the best way would be to look at what the annual turnover of the shop would be, and make the property tax a reasonable percentage of that (assuming no sales tax), something in the 5% (guild town, business friendly, like Greyhawk) - 20% (heavy taxes, most businesses marginally profitable) of turnover range seems likely. Then the PCs could petition to have the tax lowered on a change-of-use basis; but since the adventurers' income probably considerably exceeds that of the former shop they may not want the baron's taxman prying into their affairs!

 

[arwink]

Forget the tax.

Instead, have the ruler give the PC's a special title that excuses them from tax, but also obligates them to perform occasional tasks for the town (hunting down criminals, beating off the orc invaders, slaying the dragon lurking on the outskirts, closing the portal to hell some idiot opened beneath the local school).

THere's realism, but there's always times when it's easier to genuflect in realism's direction and twist it into an instant adventure hook

 

[S'mon]

Forget the tax.

Instead, have the ruler give the PC's a special title that excuses them from tax, but also obligates them to perform occasional tasks for the town (hunting down criminals, beating off the orc invaders, slaying the dragon lurking on the outskirts, closing the portal to hell some idiot opened beneath the local school).

THere's realism, but there's always times when it's easier to genuflect in realism's direction and twist it into an instant adventure hook

Actually, for a feudal society this is far more realistic than the baronn settling for some cash. Under the feudal system, service is the basic obligation, cash may or may not be acceptable in lieu.

 

[Harlock]

Actually, for a feudal society this is far more realistic than the baronn settling for some cash. Under the feudal system, service is the basic obligation, cash may or may not be acceptable in lieu.

I want to third this thought but also point out that 10-20% property tax is out-friggin-rageous, even for a fantasy setting. Of course, in a feudal system I can see this percentage and more for an income tax. Especially for high rolling adventurers. I'd say property tax on 14,000 gp establishment would be around only 100 gp a year (still a very tidy sum in "commoner" D&D terms and then an income tax of about 25% because any smart landlord will tax the crud out of someone who he knows can bring in easily a few thousand GP in a typical week of adventuring at this level of power. Heck, they can bring that in in one day if they get lucky and find the big stash, Dragon Horde, treasury etc. The lawful characters should force the group to be as honest as possible.

 

[Kershek]

Thanks for the info. I think the plot hook thing is probably best, since assessing a 100gp fee per year isn't really going to affect the group at all.

The lawful characters should force the group to be as honest as possible.

Heh - This group has three chaotic goods with a chaotic neutral.

 

[jgbrowning]

I want to third this thought but also point out that 10-20% property tax is out-friggin-rageous, even for a fantasy setting. Of course, in a feudal system I can see this percentage and more for an income tax. Especially for high rolling adventurers.

It may be, but remember the Baron knows these guys are adventurers and he knows they have the money. He also knows that if he sets it high, he has more negotional points when dealing with favors... ie. he can cut more off the taxes to appear more generous. Starting out at 4-5 times what the "locals" pay is not unreasonable for the first offer.

But from a real medieval standpoint, any city that was large enough to support a bookseller wouldn't be under the control of a Baron. It would have its own charter and the PC's would be dealing with the city council. Now the baron could be on the city council or have a "representative" in the council who cuts the deal with the PC for the place, but still making the PC's socially obligated to the baron.

Either way, the answer is very dependant upon how you play the rest of your game that pretty much any of the answers here can fit.

joe b.

 

[Agback]

10-20% property tax is out-friggin-rageous, even for a fantasy setting. Of course, in a feudal system I can see this percentage and more for an income tax.

Out-friggin-rageous or, as we call it in the profession of economics, "confiscatory". The rental return on property has varied over the centuries, but is rarely less than 3% and rarely stays above 5% for long. So a 10-20% ad valorem property tax amounts to a 200%-667% income tax on rental income. At least it does until the price of land falls through the floor. The baron had better fix his tax assessments to the market price, because if he insists on 10-20% of 'fair value' everyone will either abandon their land or else go bankrupt.

Mediaeval taxation is a vast and complex subject, as you will understand given that Mediaeval Europe spanned one thousand miles from Ireland to Muskovy, a thousand miles from Norway to Malta, and a thousand years from the fall to one Rome to the fall of the other (AD 476 to AD 1453). The only universals are that tax was always unsystematic, controversial, and it if ever yielded much it was soon crippling. {In England (a very wealthy country) the king was expected to live on the rents of his estates and the income of his courts. Taxes were imposed only as emergency measures. When there were taxes they tended to be things like 1/6 of all moveable property (one-off), or two shillings for every hearth, or to fall as duties on good imported or exported.}

The best readily-available source of information and suggestions that I can suggest is Adam Smith's "An inquiry into the nature and causes of the Wealth of Nations" [London, 1776]. Book III chapters ii-iii deals with economics under the feudal system, and Book V chapter ii deals with government revenues.

Regards,


Agback

 

[Agback]

It may be, but remember the Baron knows these guys are adventurers and he knows they have the money. He also knows that if he sets it high, he has more negotional points when dealing with favors... ie. he can cut more off the taxes to appear more generous. Starting out at 4-5 times what the "locals" pay is not unreasonable for the first offer.

On the other hand, the baron knows that adventurers are powerful (ie. their services will be valuable and highly sought-after) and that they have few ties (they will up stakes and leave unless they get a good deal). These are the sorts of people who under negotiable tax systems pay very little tax.

For example, the only things that the duke of Normandy owed the King of France before Phillip the Fair conquered the duchy were:

1. To do homage on coming into his duchy or when a new king took the throne if the king would come to Normandy to receive it.

2. To send six knights to join the Royal army for up to forty days' service if there were a war.

Many simple landed knights owed more than that.

But from a real medieval standpoint, any city that was large enough to support a bookseller wouldn't be under the control of a Baron.

In England, certainly. In the Empire, probably, though there were some un-free cities ruled by burgraves (who considered themselves counts rather than barons). In France, probably not. In Italy or Spain, almost certainly not--chartered towns were rare and the aristocracy was largely urban.

Regards,


Agback

 

[S'mon]

Out-friggin-rageous or, as we call it in the profession of economics, "confiscatory". The rental return on property has varied over the centuries, but is rarely less than 3% and rarely stays above 5% for long. So a 10-20% ad valorem property tax amounts to a 200%-667% income tax on rental income.

Slightly OT: Well, I used to pay £4440 rent/year on a house worth about £40,000 or so (11% rent)... that was in an economically depressed area (Coventry) though, which seem to have higher rent-to-value ratios. Moving to a boom area (London) I was paying £10,392 on a property worth about £150,000 or so (6.9%) which was regarded as a typical or somewhat low rent-to-value ratio. In the UK it's commonly assumed that these ratios will be over 6%, high enough to be higher than the cost of a 100% mortgage (!), although they've fallen recently. It may be lower in USA, from what my American wife says I think US property prices are quite a lot lower than here, but US rents are vastly lower in most areas.