Stupid High Skill Checks and Saves

Piratecat · Jun 3, 2007

It's not cheating; it's proactively DMing to make the game fun!

amethal · Jun 3, 2007

Ravilah said:
I was just wondering if anyone (specifically DMs) has ever found that by about level 10, most PCs have Spot/Listen checks so out of this world that nothing short of a shadowdancer wearing a Cloak of Elvenkind at Midnight has much chance of successfully staying unseen or unheard.

I take it you are using the appropriate range penalties on spot checks?

A 10th level halfling (or goblin, or other small) rogue with Dex 20, maxed out hide and an Elven cloak has a hide score of 4+5+13+5 = 27. Assuming he takes 10 (to keep the maths simple), then your PCs need a 37 even if he's right under their noses and the further back he is the harder it gets. Assuming he's 30 feet away (so he can still sneak attack) then that's effectively DC 40. [Ok, technically its DC 37 with a -3 penalty to the roll.]

If you really want to, blow two feats to get it up to 45.

If that is still a problem, include a distraction of some sort and the DC goes up to 50.

If your PCs are somehow able, at 10th level, to regularly make skill checks that are in the 40s then I suggest you examine their character sheets for errors.

However, if a player has, for whatever reason, optimised his character for spotting - for instance our party has an Elf mystic theurge with elf paragon levels, high wisdom and alertness (due to his familiar), who has an awesome spot score - then it is only right and proper that he gains the benefits.

Tonguez · Jun 3, 2007

As has been said at Level 10 the game goes epic and you are into superhero roleplaying - so play it that way dammit! The PCs spot/listen checks equates to Spidermans 'Danger Sense' give them the tingling feeling then you hit them in the back with a fireball throwing hobgoblin scorcerer riding a giant dire bat...

Piratecat · Jun 3, 2007

Tonguez said:
As has been said at Level 10 the game goes epic and you are into superhero roleplaying -

I disagree -- there's no reason that the tone of the game has to drastically change once you hit level 10. There are a myriad of ways to challenge high level PCs without getting into "silly" scenarios and villains, and it sounds to me like the OP is better off with a game like that than a "wahoooo!" variant.

Of course, this is just my personal prejudices playing into the discussion.

Plane Sailing · Jun 4, 2007

Ravilah said:
I was just wondering if anyone (specifically DMs) has ever found that by about level 10, most PCs have Spot/Listen checks so out of this world that nothing short of a shadowdancer wearing a Cloak of Elvenkind at Midnight has much chance of successfully staying unseen or unheard.

I can understand the rogue/ranger/druid/monk, since they have it as class skills - but even then it would normally be, what... 13 ranks, maybe +4 for Wisdom (higher for druid, lower for rogue/ranger) so about +17 to spot. Druids could then wildshape into an eagle for a racial +8 bonus to spot too, but they are probably the most special case here.

While the other classes - how many of them bolster their cross-class spot at 2 skill points per, to get 5 ranks + wisdom bonus at this level?

i.e. what is the fighters spot? the sorcerers spot? the paladins spot?

If a DM regularly calls for spot checks, players will quickly twig this and those classes that can get spot/listen as class skills quickly optimise them (one game I play in calls for a spot check about twice as often as every other check put together!)

jgbrowning · Jun 4, 2007

Piratecat said:
It's not cheating; it's proactively DMing to make the game fun!

And as humorous as that is, I pretty much agree. If a GMs breaking the rules and that makes the game more fun, who cares?

joe b.

Dross · Jun 4, 2007

Concerning number-crunched PCs.

How about using their PCs with the serial numbers filed off? Simply changing a weapon from a greatsword to a greataxe/falchion/halbard etc often means that the players will not realise what is happening in many cases.

I't a little more complicated for spellcasters, but the Enrgy Substitution and a theme can fix that.

Or if you have them, use now unused, older PCs.

FireLance · Jun 4, 2007

JustKim said:
Failing that, my advice is to cheat.

My counter-advice is to cheat in a way that the players will accept.

If your players are sticklers for the rules, you're just going to alienate them if they find out that you've been giving their opponents +10 bonuses to Hide and Move Silently from nowhere. However, if they have just downed an elixir of hiding and an elixir of sneaking (total cost: 500 gp), they might not be happy, but they might still give you grudging thumbs up. Just don't overuse the tactic.