D&D 5E Subclasses impact on class value

[gyor]

I've noticed how big the impact new subclasses can have on my views of a class.

Like Sorceror and Barbarian, when 5e first came out I skimmed those sections, neither class seemed compelling compared to Bard, Warlock, Paladin, ect...

Then UA came out with new subclasses that changed how I viewed those classes entirely.

Barbarian gained cool subclasses like Zealot, Ancestoral Guardian, and Storm Herald, and the Sorceror gained Storm, Shadow, Phoenix, Favoured Soul, Sea, Stone Origins each of which massive altered the game play of the class in major ways, changing how I viewed those classes. Same with Circle of the Sheppard Druid. Now Sorceror is tied with Bard as my favourite class, and Barbarian is tied with Paladin as next highest. Circle of the Sheppard is tied for first, but the Druid as a whole is in the back of the pack still.

But it extends beyond just liking a particular subclass, it encourages me to look at a class in entirely knew light. Like figuring out clever uses for metamagic, and encouraging me to take a look at older PHB subclasses with a new eye. Example Dragon Sorceror which didn't interest me in the slightest is now compelling, and I realized you can do cool things like using using the Dragon Fear Aura at the same time as a Qucken Spell like Quickened Fireball, or drop rocks on enemies from massive heights instead of just casting spells. Or imagine grappling someone and flying straight up to eventually drop them from a great height. That Point of View suggests Goliaths could make interesting Dragon Sorcerors.

Rangers were originally the Drizzt class with added spell casting, but Horizon Walker made me think of Blink of X-Men and Exiles Fame instead, radically different view of the class.

 

[SmokingSkull]

I won't lie the UA subclasses for Fighters are interesting, I'm currently playing a Monster Hunter and it's fun! I'll admit I felt a bit disappointed about said class' subclasses, Champion? I disagree with the way it's done. Battlemaster? Not bad but not for me. Eldritch Knight? Not into that. Once that article came out shortly before CoS and I saw the archetype I knew that it was something awesome. Actually playing as one is refreshing especially since the only official Fighter subclass I would play is Champion (I despised it the least compared to the other two.)

If WotC made more Fighter subclasses like the Monster Hunter (in terms of the fantasy it evokes in addition to subclass mechanics to reinforce it) I would be even happier than I already am.

 

[Ninja-radish]

Meh, personally I find that subclasses have very little impact on the core class. All they add is maybe two additional abilities, the rest of them occur at levels too high for anyone to reasonably reach. Mechanically, Subclasses are a bit of a letdown. They give the illusion of options, without actually changing much of anything.

 

[BookBarbarian]

Meh, personally I find that subclasses have very little impact on the core class. All they add is maybe two additional abilities, the rest of them occur at levels too high for anyone to reasonably reach. Mechanically, Subclasses are a bit of a letdown. They give the illusion of options, without actually changing much of anything.

Mechanically that's true, but sub-classes have quite the less definable impact on the idea or story of the character, which is I think the point of the OP.

If I don't want to play a Barbarian that is a pseudo-shaman, Anger machine, or spiky dwarf I was either refluffing or just out of luck.

Now I have the Elemental Barb, Touched/Cursed by the gods Barb, Summon his grandpa's spirit Barb. While not drastically different mechanically, they can put in ones mind a image of the idea of their character.

I would never have considered playing Sorcerer from the PHB. It's just not my style. But after seeing the Stone Sorcerer, I can see it fitting a Major Armstrong (from Fullmetal Alchemist) character using chunks of the earth as his weapons. My idea of the class was drastically widened to a new opportunity.

 

[CapnZapp]

Meh, personally I find that subclasses have very little impact on the core class. All they add is maybe two additional abilities, the rest of them occur at levels too high for anyone to reasonably reach. Mechanically, Subclasses are a bit of a letdown. They give the illusion of options, without actually changing much of anything.

I think that's a major reason they're so popular among the designers. They give the customers the illusion of change and wider complexity without actually needing that much design work, since they change so little and thus doesn't threaten to disrupt the balance that much.

I myself find options that add more crunch to existing character builds to be the most interesting (and also the most difficult to design). Unless they add a way for a character to pick a second subclass of her existing class, adding subclasses only gives value to new characters, not existing ones.

 

[gyor]

Meh, personally I find that subclasses have very little impact on the core class. All they add is maybe two additional abilities, the rest of them occur at levels too high for anyone to reasonably reach. Mechanically, Subclasses are a bit of a letdown. They give the illusion of options, without actually changing much of anything.

I disagree, subclasses can change the feel AMD utility of a class in a major way.

Favoured Soul getting Divine Magic feature for example allows for many types of builds that are impossible with a regular sorceror.

Ancestoral Guardian gives the Barbarian great defender options, something normal Barbarians really don't do.

And the Circle of Dreams and Celestial Patron basically get their unique versions of lay on hands.

Circle of the Sheppard makes Druids as good at Summoning/Creating minions as a Conjurer Wizard or better.

Stone Sorceror turns the Sorceror into a powerful gish.

Investisgator pushes Rogues towards Wisdom skills, gived, Rogue a very different way to get advantage, and changes the theme of the class from criminals to someone who catches them.

 

[WayOfTheFourElements]

While I agree that, mechanically, sub-class don't often change much, they certain have a profound impact on the feel of the class. Even though they're all addicted to Stunning Strike, all three PHB monk subclasses have a very different feel and conjure up a different image of the character in the players' minds.

In many cases, there seems to be one subclass that continues to invoke the same feeling and visual representation as the base class (hunter ranger, champion fighter, open hand monk, etc.), while the other sub classes take the character in a completely different direction (beast master, eldritch knight, way of the four elements).

The problem I have is when all of the available subclass to too specific and don't allow me to continue the classes generic flavor. Sorcerer is the best example. Either I start growing scales on by face or I explode at random moments. There's no generic "inner magic" subclass. I get to choose between the colorful butterfly master and dragon-man, neither of which are flavor neutral enough for my liking.

 

[MechaTarrasque]

While I agree that, mechanically, sub-class don't often change much, they certain have a profound impact on the feel of the class. Even though they're all addicted to Stunning Strike, all three PHB monk subclasses have a very different feel and conjure up a different image of the character in the players' minds.

In many cases, there seems to be one subclass that continues to invoke the same feeling and visual representation as the base class (hunter ranger, champion fighter, open hand monk, etc.), while the other sub classes take the character in a completely different direction (beast master, eldritch knight, way of the four elements).

The problem I have is when all of the available subclass to too specific and don't allow me to continue the classes generic flavor. Sorcerer is the best example. Either I start growing scales on by face or I explode at random moments. There's no generic "inner magic" subclass. I get to choose between the colorful butterfly master and dragon-man, neither of which are flavor neutral enough for my liking.

What is the complaint against storm sorcerer again? It has been "official" since SCAG came out in 2015, but somehow in all the discussion about how the sorcerer is "too deterministic", it never gets mentioned.

 

[WayOfTheFourElements]

What is the complaint against storm sorcerer again? It has been "official" since SCAG came out in 2015, but somehow in all the discussion about how the sorcerer is "too deterministic", it never gets mentioned.

Every time I cast a spell, I fly 10 ft. What's up with that?

Cast storm sphere, fly ten feet. Cast fireball, fly ten feet. Cast knock, fly ten feet. Cast water walk fly ten feet. Cast fly, fly ten feet. Cast dominate beast, fly ten feet. Cast stoneskin, fly ten feet.

I turn myself into a rock, and propel myself upwards into the sky. Um...no thank you. Not quite neutral enough, still.

 

[TwoSix]

I think that's a major reason they're so popular among the designers. They give the customers the illusion of change and wider complexity without actually needing that much design work, since they change so little and thus doesn't threaten to disrupt the balance that much.

I myself find options that add more crunch to existing character builds to be the most interesting (and also the most difficult to design). Unless they add a way for a character to pick a second subclass of her existing class, adding subclasses only gives value to new characters, not existing ones.

Well, that's tough, because the vectors for delivering those sort of options aren't as universally accepted as class/subclass. Feats could do it, but they're rare, and there isn't precedent for creating feats that are class-specific. (Granted, WotC could create the precedent.) Magic items and boons already exist to add powers to existing characters, but they've been removed as player-chosen options. Spells are a solid vector, but limited to only a few classes. Prestige classes and/or alternative class features (like in 3.5) could work as well, but PrCs have a lot of baggage, and I'm guessing the rune magic prestige class from a few years ago went over like a lead balloon, considering the lack of followup. PrCs would be my personal choice, though, 3e/5e levels are the right grain size for gaining different abilities, and provide obvious trade-offs.