D&D (2024) Subclasses

[Yaarel]

This is a thread to discuss subclasses.

According to the Playtest 6 and recent comments in playtest videos with Crawford, the subclass schedule currently looks like the following table.

Four classes use the standard subclass levels 3, 6, 10, and 14: Barbarian, Druid, Warlock, and Wizard. The Bard and Sorcerer also use it, except are missing level 10. Sorcerer adds its fourth subclass level at 18. The Bard and Cleric only have three subclass levels. The playtest starts all subclasses at level 3, but afterward Cleric, Monk, Ranger, Paladin, and Rogue schedule the rest of their four subclasses irregularly.


STANDARD SUBCLASS LEVELS

LEVEL

BRB

DRU

WRK

WIZ

SRC

BRD

CLR

MNK

FTR

RGR

PAL

ROG

1

2

3

BRB

DRU

WRK

WIZ

SRC

BRD

CLR

MNK

FTR

RGR

PAL

ROG

4

5

6

BRB

DRU

WRK

WIZ

SRC

BRD

CLR

MNK

7

FTR

RGR

PAL

8

9

ROG

10

BRB

DRU

WRK

WIZ

FTR

11

MNK

RGR

12

13

ROG

14

BRB

DRU

WRK

WIZ

SRC

BRD

15

FTR

RGR

PAL

16

17

CLR

MNK

ROG

18

SCR

FTR

19

20

PAL

 

[Yaarel]

It seems possible to partially standard the subclass schedule.

The standard levels can appear at 3, 6, 10, 14, and 18. But none of the class have all five.

For example, the Rogue can move its subclasses levels to 3, 6, −, 14, and 18. This moves the second subclass level from 9 to a lower level. Thus it helps actualize the subclass character concept sooner.

With these five slots in mind.

Barbarian, Druid, Monk, Ranger, Warlock, and Wizard: 3, 6, 10, 14, −
Paladin, Sorcerer, and Rogue: 3, 6, −, 14, 18
Bard and Cleric: 3, 6, −, 14, −

In any case, it seems worthwhile to standardize all subclass levels at both 3 and 6, so as to more fully actualize a subclass concept earlier on.


It also seems possible to develop cross-class subclasses, like Strixhaven does. To design a crossclass, only design for three levels, say 3, 6, and 14. Then the classes that have four subclass levels, can fill out the missing level with a level from an other subclass or feat of their choice.

 

[Yaarel]

For reference, the four subclasses for each class are:

Barbarian: Berserker, Wild Heart, World Tree, Zealot
Bard: Dance, Glamour, Lore, Valor
Cleric: Life, Light, Trickery, War
Druid: Land, Moon, Sea, Stars
Fighter: Battlemaster, Psi Warrior, Champion, Eldritch
Monk: Elements, Mercy, Shadow, Hand
Paladin: Ancients, Devotion, Glory, Vengeance
Ranger: Beast, Fey, Gloom, Hunter
Rogue: Psi Knife, Swashbuckler, Thief, Trickster (one too many maybe Assassin gone)
Sorcerer: Aberrant, Clockwork, Draconic, Wild
Warlock: Archfey, Celestial, Fiend, Goo
Wizard: Abjurer, Diviner, Evoker, and Illusionist

 

[DEFCON 1]

Yep, any DM is free to move the levels that subclasses come in to wherever they want. Including moving some classes first subclass back to Level 1 or 2 if it matters that much to them. And for the two classes that only get 3 subclass features, a DM could always just hand out an extra feat to them (or a specific feat to them) to "become" a subclass feature.

After all... that's pretty much what feats already are-- cross-class subclass features.

 

[TwoSix]

I know I'm shouting into the wind here, but I still feel it's just a monumental waste of space to reprint a bunch of subclasses when the entire point of the exercise is that the new book is entirely compatible with what came before.

What I would have like to see them do for the 4 subclasses for each class is

1) Reprint/revise as needed the Basic Rules/OGL subclass (Life Domain, Champion, Thief, etc.)
2) Pick one popular/iconic subclass from a non-PHB source that could stand with some revising.
3) Two entirely new, or at least completely reimagined, subclasses.

 

[Yaarel]

After all... that's pretty much what feats already are-- cross-class subclass features.

That might be a better way to design crossclasses. Three feats that share a similar theme, but dont necessarily require each other as prereqs. The only prereq would be a minimum level if the feat offered a significant amount of design space.

 

[DEFCON 1]

I know I'm shouting into the wind here, but I still feel it's just a monumental waste of space to reprint a bunch of subclasses when the entire point of the exercise is that the new book is entirely compatible with what came before.

What I would have like to see them do for the 4 subclasses for each class is

1) Reprint/revise as needed the Basic Rules/OGL subclass (Life Domain, Champion, Thief, etc.)
2) Pick one popular/iconic subclass from a non-PHB source that could stand with some revising.
3) Two entirely new, or at least completely reimagined, subclasses.

They would only do that if they only expected to sell these books to people who already owned the 5E14 Player's Handbook. But they don't. They expect this to be sold to mainly a lot of new players... for whom all these basic and baseline subclasses should be at their fingertips in the 5E24 book.

If any of us 5E14 players don't want to buy material twice... then we don't have to buy the 5E24 book. We can just stick with the old one. But to think WotC should print all-new material for half of the subclasses in the game and make new players buy the 5E24 book AND the 5E14 book so they can get the foundations of every class / subclass is rather silly in my opinion.

Yeah, you don't want to buy the same material twice. But sometimes we just have to sacrifice a few bucks to the Altar of Ease-Of-Use.

 

[DEFCON 1]

That might be a better way to design crossclasses. Three feats that share a similar theme, but dont necessarily require each other as prereqs. The only prereq would be a minimum level if the feat offered a significant amount of design space.

DMs can do that right now if they really want to. Every one of us could bundle feats together into packages and label them with "4th level / 8th level / 12th" identifiers and a cutsie name on them at this very moment. None of us do though, because at this point players can just buy the feats they want in the order they want and not need the help.

Same reason why it was like 7 years too late for WotC to release the Battlemaster "builds" in Tasha's that pre-selected combat maneuvers for you to create various packages. They might've been useful and caught on at the very beginning of the game's lifespan, but at this point everyone knows which maneuvers are useful to them and their table and which ones aren't.

 

[TwoSix]

If any of us 5E14 players don't want to buy material twice... then we don't have to buy the 5E24 book. We can just stick with the old one. But to think WotC should print all-new material for half of the subclasses in the game and make new players buy the 5E24 book AND the 5E14 book so they can get the foundations of every class / subclass is rather silly in my opinion.

Yea, but that's assuming that the subclasses in the PHB2014 form a common core of the game. I disagree with that assumption. You make a new common core with the new material, and then leave the option to dive into the back catalog up to the new player.

That has the benefit of giving current players a book that also functions as a third Xanathar's/Tasha's type book, so that those of who would like new material also benefit.

 

[Marandahir]

For reference, the four subclasses for each class are:

Barbarian: Berserker, Totem, (?), (?)
Bard: Dance, Glamour, Lore, Valor
Cleric: Life, Light, Trickery, War
Druid: Land, Moon, Sea, Stars
Fighter: Champion, Battlemaster, Eldritch Knight, (?)
Monk: Elements, Mercy, Shadow, Open Hand
Paladin: Ancients, Devotion, Glory, Vengeance
Ranger: Beast, Fey, Gloom, Hunter
Rogue: Assassin, Swashbuckler, Thief, Trickster
Sorcerer: Draconic, Wild, (?), (?)
Warlock: Archfey, Fiend, Goo, (?)
Wizard: Bladesinger (?), Evoker, Warmage (?), (?)

Where are you getting the Wizard subclasses from? Are those your own hopes or were they confirmed? Where is Necromancer?