Subdual Damage and Deathless Frenzy

[pawsplay]

We also have an example of something Deathless Frenzy does not explicitly protect against, which causes unconsciousness - non-lethal damage. This is unconsciousness that the Berserker cannot scorn, just as he scorns death, but not if it results from massive damage.

Except that massive damage is something that explicitly he does not scorn. "The exception proves the rule," applies, I think.

 

[pawsplay]

Like I suggested, allowing it to ignore the Nonlethal from Frenzy itself (but not other Nonlethal damage) is perfectly reasonable since it allows the ability to work as written.

I disagree. If it worked on the nonlethal damage for the ability itself, but not for nonlethal damage in general, that would definitely be written into the ability. It's also weird, and results in some potential book-keeping problems. In general, I would avoid modifying an ability in such a way that it does not work like any other ability I can think of.

The simplest answer is that yes, it does work on nonlethal damage. It's not as as if nonlethal damage is an important balancing factor that is supposed to hold the FB in check. How often does nonlethal damage come up in the first place? And there is something just very wrong with the FB shrugging off axe blows and fireballs, possessed by an amazing fury, then getting taken out by a nonlethal substitution spell or a punch.

I'm not really into kludges.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Except that massive damage is something that explicitly he does not scorn.

And ability damage isn't.

If you're going to have him ignore the effects of non-lethal damage because he scorns unconsciousness, you must for consistency have him ignore the effects of Con or Int damage, because he scorns death and unconsciousness.

The result of 0 Con is neither massive damage nor a spell effect, so it is addressed by Deathless Frenzy in exactly the same way non-lethal damage is - only by that first sentence, which I maintain describes the way the FrB relates to negative hit points.

If you feel that the first sentence also provides mechanics for dealing with non-lethal damage, it must also provide mechanics for dealing with ability damage.

-Hyp.

 

[Caliban]

And ability damage isn't.

If you're going to have him ignore the effects of non-lethal damage because he scorns unconsciousness, you must for consistency have him ignore the effects of Con or Int damage, because he scorns death and unconsciousness.

He must? You plan on going over to his house and setting him straight if he doesn't?

The result of 0 Con is neither massive damage nor a spell effect, so it is addressed by Deathless Frenzy in exactly the same way non-lethal damage is - only by that first sentence, which I maintain describes the way the FrB relates to negative hit points.

If you feel that the first sentence also provides mechanics for dealing with non-lethal damage, it must also provide mechanics for dealing with ability damage.

-Hyp.

Or you can assume that the creator of the class made a mistake and didn't account for all the possible game mechanic interactions with the ability, and have your DM make a ruling that makes sense for the game.

Or maybe the "Deathless Frenzy" represents the character being possessed by the Spirit of Rage, and the while in the frenzy it will operate your body like a marionette regardless of your hit points or stats being reduced to zero or below.

In my game, it was a simple fix - ban the frenzied berserker. It's a poorly concieved, and even more poorly executed class.

 

[KarinsDad]

Or you can assume that the creator of the class made a mistake and didn't account for all the possible game mechanic interactions with the ability, and have your DM make a ruling that makes sense for the game.

Precisely.

 

[KarinsDad]

I disagree. If it worked on the nonlethal damage for the ability itself, but not for nonlethal damage in general, that would definitely be written into the ability. It's also weird, and results in some potential book-keeping problems. In general, I would avoid modifying an ability in such a way that it does not work like any other ability I can think of.

I didn't say this solution was written in the ability, I said it was a reasonable adjudication.

You disagree that it is a reasonable compromise when by RAW, the PC drops the moment he goes to 1 (or even more) hit point every single time while Frenzying and never gets to really use Deathless Frenzy?

I did not state that this was the only possible solution, only a reasonable one that allows for nonlethal from Frenzy (which allows DF to work), but also does not allows nonlethal from other sources (because the Deathless Frenzy ability does NOT explicitly disallow nonlethal). That's why it's called a compromise: it is part way between what RAW states and what RAW maybe should have stated.


Another reasonable solution is the one you suggested that all nonlethal damage be ignored until he comes out of Deathless Frenzy.

That too is reasonable. It too is also not RAW.

 

[pawsplay]

LarinsDad, I disagree about your interpretation of the "RAW." I see no reason the ability would not apply against nonlethal damage in the first place.

Somatic (S): A somatic component is a measured and precise movement of the hand. You must have at least one hand free to provide a somatic component.

Why? I think ability damage comforable falls into the same category as spell effects and massive damage. That is, sources of damage other than attacks.

Nonlethal damage is a special case, is all. I don't see any reason it should bypass Deathless Frenzy any more than it should DR.

Let's compare two sentences from the SRD:

Damage Reduction (Ex or Su): A creature with this special quality ignores damage from most weapons and natural attacks.

Dealing Nonlethal Damage: Certain attacks deal nonlethal damage. Other effects, such as heat or being exhausted, also deal nonlethal damage. When you take nonlethal damage, keep a running total of how much you’ve accumulated. Do not deduct the nonlethal damage number from your current hit points. It is not “real” damage.


Now, since nonlethal damage isn't "real" damage, DR shouldn't help you, right?

Or are you willing to consider nonlethal a special case of doing damage, with special provisions, rather than a different kind of damage, that, for instance, deathless frenzy does not ignore?

 

[Hypersmurf]

Somatic (S): A somatic component is a measured and precise movement of the hand. You must have at least one hand free to provide a somatic component.

Er... what?

Why? I think ability damage comforable falls into the same category as spell effects and massive damage. That is, sources of damage other than attacks.

There is no 'category'. It says that the ability does not prevent death from massive damage or from spell effects such as slay living or disintegrate. There is room in there for extrapolation of which other spell effects are like slay living or disintegrate, but there's no wiggle room to add in "things that are neither massive damage nor spell effects".

Nonlethal damage is a special case, is all. I don't see any reason it should bypass Deathless Frenzy any more than it should DR.

But it's like saying "I don't see any reason why ability damage should bypass DR", or "I don't see any reason why slashing damage should bypass energy resistance". If the ability doesn't address something - like DR doesn't address ability damage - there's no need for ability damage to 'bypass' DR. DR simply doesn't apply in the first place.

Or are you willing to consider nonlethal a special case of doing damage, with special provisions, rather than a different kind of damage, that, for instance, deathless frenzy does not ignore?

It's a type of damage measured in hit points (not "real" damage, where the inverted commas and context seem to suggest that "real" in this case means "lethal"), even though that number of hit points of non-lethal damage is not subtracted from the character's hit point total, so DR applies just fine. (While ability damage, for example, is not measured in hit points, so "The numerical part of a creature’s damage reduction is the amount of hit points the creature ignores from normal attacks" doesn't allow for DR to reduce ability damage.)

And Deathless Frenzy doesn't "ignore" non-lethal damage. It's simply that non-lethal damage never brings a character to 0 hit points, -1 to -9 hit points, or -10 hit points or less, which are the situations in which Deathless Frenzy provides advantage.

-Hyp.

 

[Hypersmurf]

To summarise:

I can accept a position that states:

Deathless Frenzy permits a Frenzied Berserker to scorn death or unconsciousness under all circumstances, with the exceptions of a/ death from massive damage, and b/ death from a spell effect such as slay living or disintegrate. This means that the Berserker can scorn unconsciousness from Int, Wis, or Cha damage; from non-lethal damage; from spells like Scintillating Pattern (assuming there's a spell that can cause unconsciousness in a 10 HD creature); and death from Con damage.

I can accept a position that states:

Deathless Frenzy permits a Frenzied Berserker to scorn death or unconsciousness resulting from a hit point total of 0, -1 to -9, or -10 or less. Death or unconsciousness resulting from anything else affects the Berserker as normal.

But I can't accept that a position somewhere in between can be considered a self-consistent interpretation. Either the first sentence is globally applicable except for the specified exceptions, or it is descriptive of the specified situations. But there's no consistency to a claim that it describes the specified situations plus some other stuff that isn't hinted at, and that it is ignored by the specified exceptions plus some other stuff that isn't listed.

-Hyp.

 

[pawsplay]

Sorry about the bad cut and paste above. Anyhow.

But it's like saying "I don't see any reason why ability damage should bypass DR", or "I don't see any reason why slashing damage should bypass energy resistance". If the ability doesn't address something - like DR doesn't address ability damage - there's no need for ability damage to 'bypass' DR. DR simply doesn't apply in the first place.


If it is like saying that, then DR does not apply to nonlethal damage. DR, for instance, does not address nonlethal damage. Not explicitly. Since you are willing to accept nonlethal damage behaves differently than regular damage in the case of deathless frenzy, why not for DR?