Sudden Thought

[Northman]

Trying not to get caught up in the half-ogre discussion again with the players, I had a sudden thought. Tell me I'm stupid...

One of the problems I have with the way ECL races are handled is the total lack of hit points if it's +2 or more. I tried adding +2d8 to the half-ogre but it was pointed out that I'm really adding 2 levels of giant, which increases the ECL by 2. So how about this... and I know this would change things for the couple of players who run half-ogres right now, but I'm thinking for the future.

How about something that makes our big hulking character race a little different? A limitation that could be offset by some hit points...

Because of the nature of the half-ogre, one of the byproducts of this vile union is a stunted (perhaps mutated) mind. A half-ogre is incapable of taking any spellcasting classes except sorcerer and can not use any weapons other than simple weapons. Half-ogres have a maximum intelligence of 8 unless raised through magical means.

In return they would get a bonus of +2d8 hit points.

What do you think??? I had a sudden inspiration. I know it's probably a stupid idea, but... something about it sounds cool.

 

[DMEntropy]

This is getting somewhere. Though increasing the complexity. I like the limitations of intelligence and weapons choices. I think that the Shaman class should also be allowed for spellcasting.

An idea that I had come up with was for the Half-Ogre to gain +1d8 hit points when achieving 1,000 and 3,000 XP's. No other class abilities, just the hit points.

 

[Northman]

The hit dice could be staggered until 2nd level xp, but it would be the only thing staggered. I'm not sure if it would make intuitive sense.

I agree with the shaman class. I was just thinking about the "natural" spellcaster, the sorcerer. Where no formal training or complex though was needed. It could be done instictively. Are there more? Maybe a more generic statement of "instictive" spellcaster is in line with examples such as sorcerers and shamans. Or just those who don't prepare spells...

I know the intelligence thing is a limitation, but I think it's kind of a cool one that makes them a little more narrow in scope and can offset some power, enabling a more reasonable hit point total.

And in this way, a human fighter with an 18 str and two handed sword could do a max damage of 18. A half-ogre with a spear (or similar 1d8 damage weapon) two handed with a 24 strength could do a max of 18 damage. So the ogre is much stronger, but uses much more simple weapons because he's basically brain damaged.

I think it would make our half-ogres more distinct. It would further seperate them from the strong half-orcs. And it would solidify them as that hulking stupid race.

Any other thoughts?

 

[Emiricol]

Perhaps it is because I'm in pain and on meds but I really like your idea. I'd say no to sorcerer, by the way, since they still typically have to experiment and explore their powers to make magic happen (despite being CHA based). Not that I think there'd be many half-ogre sorcerers, mind you. But a shaman/adept limitation, along with the intelligence limit and the simple weapons only limit (regardless of class proficiencies) makes it very flavorful and as mentioned before, backs up the theme of the creatures.

 

[Northman]

Thanks. Sometimes good ideas come to you in sudden bursts... or on drugs. Since I'm drug free (can not be said for everyone around here) I'll chalk it up to inspiration.

Though I don't think they need to be limited from being sorcerers. If someone really wanted to make one, it would seem to make sense, since it is a natural thing that the person can't control. A half-ogre sorcerer probably wouldn't be very good in a lot of ways, but if someone really wanted to make one, I think it would stay with the flavor.

So, does anyone object this change being made to the half-ogre?

That is, the current half-ogre with the addition of 2d8 bonus hit points, can only use simple weapons, can only take spellcasting classes that do not prepare spells, and can never have more than an 8 intelligence.

 

[Emiricol]

An "Aye" vote from me!

 

[Northman]

Any other opinions?

 

[lycander]

Looks good, Northman, but I have a couple questions:

Will the restriction on weapons be overridden by feats?
Can a half-ogre speand a feat on a martial or exotic weapon proficiency?

I have more thoughts on the matter, but figured I'd wait to see if I'm interpretting this right instead of boring everybody.

 

[Northman]

That is an excellent question. I haddn't thought of that. See, that's why there's supposed to be 13 of us.

There's obviously two ways to go.

1. Yes, with a feat they could use a martial weapon or exotic weapon.
2. No, the restriction remains, feats can not overcome it.

If we go with the first idea, then the restriction isn't that bad. Most half-ogre fighters would spend a feat on something like a greatsword and be happy. You lose one feat. You'll get a -4 if you try to shoot a bow, etc. But not that big of a deal.

If we go with the second idea, then it just means there's no way to get around it. Now that I'm thinking about it though, it depends how we word it. If we say that a half-ogre can never obtain a martial weapon feat then he could use a martial weapon at -4. If we say he can never use one, then he couldn't use it at any minus.

I would be in favor of having the restriction remain, so a feat would not overcome it. But it would only seem reasonable to not try and prohibit a half-ogre from picking up a two-handed sword and trying to use it. They should just get the -4 like a cleric would.

What do you guys think?

 

[Silverglass]

I don't like it, it really just makes the half-ogre just as unplayable as it may be with the current adjustments.

I will have a think and try and suggest something else. One major this is that something that gives an LA+2 with no racial HD can quite reasonable be put down to an LA of +1 with 2 racial HD. Because most Racial HD are inferior to character levels you can offset some of the bonuses against these.

I had a very long and hard look at this and I think I have found ways to balance the race out. The main overpowering point is the +6 STR, that really makes a huge difference especially at low levels. As we have made our Half-Ogres Medium I do not think that we need to go higher than +4 STR (which still means a starting 20-22 STR is very possible.

If you want an ECL +1 playable race then I would suggest the following,

Giant Blood (Ex): For all special abilities and effects, a half-ogre is considered a giant. Half-ogres can use magic items with racially specific powers as giants. (this is actually a very minor penalty as the only real effect is that they would be affected by giant-bane weapons).
Darkvision (Ex): The half-ogre has darkvision to a range of 60’.
Ability Adjustments: +4 Strength, -2 Dexterity, +4 Constitution, -4 Intelligence, -2 Charisma. Half-ogres are as strong as an ox and about as smart as one. They are also slow and ugly.
Armor Class: Half-ogres are naturally tough and gain a +2 natural armor bonus.
Automatic Languages: Common or Giant
Size: Medium
Favored Class: Barbarian
Level Adjustment +1

Over an above a Half-Orc the Half-Ogre gets +2 STR, +2 CON, -2 DEX, -2 INT and +2 Natural Armour. That seems a reasonable LA.

If you want an ECL +2 Race I would suggest.

+4 Strength, –2 Dexterity, +4 Constitution, –4 Intelligence, –2 Charisma.
Darkvision out to 60 feet.
Racial Hit Dice: An half-ogre begins with one level of giant, which provide 1d8 Hit Dice, a base attack bonus of +1, and base saving throw bonuses of Fort +2, Ref +0, and Will +0.
Racial Skills: An half-ogre’s giant levels give it skill points equal to 4 x (2 + Int modifier, minimum 1). Its class skills are Climb, Listen, and Spot. (this is a nice penalty as the bonus skill points are forced into such a limited set).
Racial Feats: An half-ogre’s giant levels give it one feat.
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: An half-ogre is automatically proficient with simple weapons, martial weapons, light and medium armor, and shields.
+2 natural armor bonus.
Favored Class: Barbarian.
Level adjustment +1.

Either of these two options I would be happy to play without feeling I was overpowering combat or too weak to take damage.