Sudden Thought

[Northman]

The problem is that the monster hit dice are suposed to increase the ECL. It's a level. It may not be as good as a character level, but it is a level. As someone mentioned they are like warrior levels in that 3=2. But add a level of giant and you have to add +1 ECL.

I just don't know if we can get around that.

And if the race is supposed to be a hack and slasher, take and give hits, then having a level 3 fighter with 11 hit points (as opposed to 30 in the same human) doesn't make sense. He's gonna get whacked, thus the complaints. That's the purpose of the modification.

I'm not crazy abou the +4 str because its the same as an orc, and I'd wanted them to be stronger than an orc...

Hmmm, still thinking.

 

[Silverglass]

It all depends on what you want the ECL adjustment to turn out to be.

If you want to limit it to a +2 then 1 Giant HD and an LA of +1 gives you that.

So a 1st Level Half-Ogre fighter (ECL3) would have 1d8+1d10+CON hit points. With the raised CON bonus I suggested that will probably mean at least 1d8+1d10+6 which is not too bad for a 3rd level fighter.

The +6 STR is a big issue, it is very overpowering. If you really want to keep it I would say you must be going for a 1HD and +1 LA as a minimum.

How about this as a compromise:

+6 Strength, –2 Dexterity, +2 Constitution, –4 Intelligence, –2 Charisma.
Darkvision out to 60 feet.
Racial Hit Dice: An half-ogre begins with one level of giant, which provide 1d8 Hit Dice, a base attack bonus of +1, and base saving throw bonuses of Fort +2, Ref +0, and Will +0.
Racial Skills: An half-ogre’s giant level gives it skill points equal to 4 x (2 + Int modifier, minimum 1). Its class skills are Climb, Listen, and Spot. (this is a nice penalty as the bonus skill points are forced into such a limited set).
Racial Feats: An half-ogre’s giant levels give it one feat.
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: An half-ogre is automatically proficient with simple weapons, martial weapons, light and medium armor, and shields.
+2 natural armor bonus.
Favored Class: Barbarian.
Level adjustment +1.

 

[Emiricol]

The "average" human fighter at level 3 is going to have HP of 10+10+8 for levels +6 for CON, or 34 HP. Not sure there is a way around that problem, or even that we need to - a third level fighter is a highly trained veteran after all whereas a first level Fighter as a half-ogre is, well, just beginning. And since HP do not equal entirely physical damage, this seems ok.

I have to say this is a vibrant conversation! I like NM's version (mostly because it has so much flavor). I'd say, in answer to his question, that a half-ogre can use martial weapons at -4 like anyone else, but can use a feat to get a weapon proficiency. I mean, if they want to spend the feat on that, why not? It still means the average NPC half ogre carries a club or something, not a sword, but some special half ogres (read: PCs) might understand the concept of more advanced weapons.

My thoughts. If we go with other suggestions, I'd support whatever the group wants to do though.

 

[Northman]

Silverglass, you mean level adjustment of +2 right?

 

[DMEntropy]

I think that the real problem with the half-ogre is based on its offensive/defensive capabilities, regardless of allowed weapons.

The difference in damage done by a STR 22 character wielding a mace versus a great sword really is not that great. Heavy Mace or Spear = 1d8+6 for an average of 10.5 and range of 7-14 if used one handed, average of 13.5 and range of 10-18 if used two handed. Greatsword = 2d6+9 for an average of 16 and range of 11-21. Sure the greatsword does more damage on average and potential max per blow. Do you think the 5 hit point orc facing a level 1 half-ogre fighter is going to care that he just took 10.5 or 13.5 damage per blow? I don't really have time to go into the greater probability chance of hitting each round other than to mention that on a d20 scale, the 22 STR fighter has a 10% per strike greater chance of hitting than does an 18 STR fighter. This yields a greater frequency of hitting and higher damage per hit to really step up this fighter's offensive output.

On the defensive side we have to look at hit points. Giving a level 1 fighter 2d8 of "Giant Level" hit points to start with yields a fighter with 23 (8+8+7.5) hit points plus 3*CON Bonus. With an easily achievable 16 CON this would total 29 hit points.

No CR 1 or 2 monster has a chance against this brute. This will translate into the other PC's around the half-ogre being confronted with challenges beyond their abilities (higher death rates, DM interventions, etc.) or the half-ogre wading through all combat type challenges with a yawn. Either way this leads to boring game play. I have experienced this in my Kinrisar Campaign. The half-ogre player crushed anything that the other PC's had a chance against and the PC's hid behind the half-ogre when facing anything that had a chance against the half-ogre.

A balance must be found to keep this race playable at low levels. Or, make this race a Level 3 and above race only and keep it as it is written.

 

[Northman]

You definitely identify the problem. But remember that you shouldn't be comparing a half-ogre to a level one human. It was a ECL +1 creature, which means you would compare it to a 2nd level fighter, and now a 3rd level fighter.

This is one of the reasons I felt I had to bump it to a +2 ECL, it still far outmatched 2nd level fighters. Tweaking it and keeping it +2 ECL keeps it playable, I think. With the weapon limitation it allows for greater hit points and less straight damage capability. While they'll still be able to do great feats of strength, when it comes to damage in combat, they'll be more comparable with other fighters.

Leting them get over that with one feat seems to easy. With a feat they get over the check that keeps them balanced.

Beyond that I there's a cool flavor factor here. Half-ogres have corrupted minds becoming a race that never should have been. Because of their simple brains they can not cast prepared spells or use martial or exotic weapons. I think it makes them really different in our world and adds roleplaying possibilities.

 

[DMEntropy]

I do like the Flavor aspects of what you have added. They are attractive and make sense as well. A rare pairing.

Unfortunately, they do not fix the mechanical problem. Perhaps we should just put a disclaimer on the race stating that below 3rd level this race is believed to be unbalanced? From 3rd level on it would be OK.

 

[Emiricol]

Absolutely

 

[Northman]

No no no. If you play a half-ogre first level fighter you are in essence a 3rd level character. In general they should not be allowed until the campaign hits third level. If a DM wants to, fine, but allowing ANY ECL race in a first level game means by definition they will be unbalanced. They will be too powerful.

The half-ogre is not an acception.

 

[Silverglass]

Northman - my latter suggestion was definitely +1 LA. That can be justified by adding the "inferior" racial HD thsi allowing better adjustments while staying within the limits of +1 LA. The character still ends up as ECL+2 but as a starting "3rd level" PC has 2HD rather than 1 so can survive.

<snip>
On the defensive side we have to look at hit points. Giving a level 1 fighter 2d8 of "Giant Level" hit points to start with yields a fighter with 23 (8+8+7.5) hit points plus 3*CON Bonus. With an easily achievable 16 CON this would total 29 hit points.

No CR 1 or 2 monster has a chance against this brute. This will translate into the other PC's around the half-ogre being confronted with challenges beyond their abilities (higher death rates, DM interventions, etc.) or the half-ogre wading through all combat type challenges with a yawn. Either way this leads to boring game play. I have experienced this in my Kinrisar Campaign. The half-ogre player crushed anything that the other PC's had a chance against and the PC's hid behind the half-ogre when facing anything that had a chance against the half-ogre.<snip>.

Just to clarify things my +6 Str proposal uses 1 Giant HD and +1 LA so the starting fighter would have 10+8+(2*CON) as a 3rd level PC.

A +2 LA race is to weak defensively when playing in the party they should be in (3rd level) because they will have 1 HD. But their offensive power will probably be about right for a 3rd level party. Which means that they crack like an eggshell against CR3 monsters but crush CR 1 monsters. This gives rise to exactly the problem DMEntropy has had in his campaign.

The +6 strength for a Half-Ogre is a massive offensive advantage at low levels, you just cannot squeeze that into a ECL+1 race. So either the STR has to be reduced to get it down to ECL+1 (i.e. no racial HD and a +1 LA) or you have to work with a ECL+2 solution. Having just +2 LA creates a eggshell armed with a hammer so I thing the better solution is 1 Racial HD and +1 LA to give that ECL+2 result.

The simple fact is that a Half-Ogre Fighter 1 is NOT, and can NEVER be, a 1st level PC, its a 3rd level PC and should never adventure with any less than 2nd level PC's.

Lets compare our Half-Ogre Fighter 1 with a Fighter 3 (I'll go with 16 STR, 14 CON and 14 DEX as the base point buy and ignore feats).

He will have +2 BAB, +8 melee/+6 damage vs the fighter's +3 BAB, +5 melee/+4 damage. He will have +3 ranged vs the fighters +5 ranged.
He will have 24HP vs the fighter's 33 (assuming 7.5 for ftr level 3).
He will have +1 normal AC, +2 flatfooted) but -1 touch AC (from +2 natural armour but only a +1 dex mod). Initiative is +1 vs the fighters +2.

He has a +4 base Fort save but +0 base reflex and will saves (this is quite an important point in that although the Giant HD gives a +2 Fort this means it delays the gaining of Ref and Wil save bonuses by a level, which is the area in which the Half-Ogre is already most vulnerable. A Fighter 6 gets a +2 base will save whereas the Half-Ogre will be an 8th level PC before this happens.

All of this means that the half-ogre is completely unsuited to adventuring with a 1st level party, but a +2 LA is already unsuited because of his massive offensive bonus so that situation hasn't changed. He could just about adventure with a 2nd level party (but would be about the toughest) and would be OK with a 3rd level party.