D&D 5E Suggestion: Broken?

[Wishbone]

Would a creature really find it "reasonable" to travel 100 miles north for no reason? I'd think a valid Suggestion should include a reason why the affected creature would want to do such a thing.

Suggestion is a 2nd-level spell with frustratingly vague rules for how it works. Based on how the DM rules "reasonable" it can be nearly useless or the best mind manipulation spell behind Mass Suggestion.

I've been planning a yuan-ti focused campaign for a while, and even the CR 1 yuan-ti pureblood has Suggestion as an innate spellcasting choice three times per day. I really just want to use yuan-ti because snakes are cool, but I can't let their Suggestion ability go unused. I've got to figure out how I think this vaguely defined spell that could be potentially used against the PCs in that campaign very often should work. I don't want the yuan-ti to be able to just compel the PCs to naughty word off constantly, for example, so I need to hammer out a more precise and consistent ruling for how Suggestion works than 5E's designers did (the given example of a knight giving away their horse doesn't sound that "reasonable" to me, honestly). I think one of the solutions there is to be pedantic about how the supernatural suggestions are worded. I also don't want to neuter Suggestion to the point that it's basically just an alternative to a Persuasion check, though.

I agree a knight giving up their horse isn't the most reasonable, but an example like when Obi-Wan Kenobi used Jedi Mind Trick to convince that Stormtrooper that R2D2 and C3PO weren't the droids they were looking for seemed more powerful than a single Persuasion roll.

 

[FrogReaver]

I can see it going either way and wouldn't complain if a DM ruled it worked, or if he ruled that it didn't. To me, the suggestion is a part of the spell and would be verbal. Spells don't really shift to become telepathic if they are verbal. The spell doesn't explicitly say that, though.

Rulings over rules!

agreed. If he ruled otherwise I wouldn’t be upset. I think there’s enough there for a ruling either way. So DMs call.

 

[Maxperson]

that’s more pedantry. “The thing you desire most is 100miles north of here. Go there now.” I can always add words to fulfill whatever requirement you set.

I don’t find it to be worthwhile to be pedantic with the players. There are nearly always ways to word the suggestion such that they get the exact outcome they desire. If the basic course of action they declare could be arrived at via some other words then I’d allow it.

What's the point of having the requirement that the phrasing be reasonable if you're just going to alter the wording after the fact to make any phrasing reasonable? The spell has that requirement to make the player think about his phrasing. If he phrases the suggestion in such a way that it's unreasonable, it should fail. Yes there are ways to make most suggestions reasonable and it's the player's job to find those ways.

 

[Northern Phoenix]

Suggestion is designed to be DM dependent to allow for a flexible power-scale depending on what is appropriate for your story. It's not "broken", and some of the actually broken spells should probably be designed more like Suggestion.

 

[Oofta]

...
Also, would a creature really find it "reasonable" to travel 100 miles north for no reason?

That's always going to be the issue, isn't it? Especially if taken literally - go due north, hit a wall, realize there is no way to go through the wall, break spell. Or realize the 100 miles due north would put you far into enemy territory which would be suicidal. Also unreasonable. Then there's the fact that in my games whatever the PCs can do, the monsters can do as well.

So (surprisingly) it hasn't come up in a game, but this is one of those things I'd just want to discuss with the group outside of game time. Make it clear how powerful I think it should be, what repercussions are and so on. Telling an aboleth to "f* off" might only mean a round or two. Once they've evacuated the immediate area they have fulfilled the suggestion and are free to come back.

But that starts sounding like the old school advice about wish - the DM was supposed to look for loopholes screw over the players. I want suggestion to be useful, but don't want adversarial DMing either. Sometimes the players should be able to pull out that get-out-of-jail-free card.

In a non-hostile encounter I'm going to give the PCs a lot more leeway on what is reasonable. If the PCs are invading the lair of the aboleth (and the aboleth knows this) is it really reasonable for it to leave? It might be reasonable to suggest that it needs to check the back door for invaders because even more powerful enemies are coming.

So talk it over with the group. Figure out what works for you and your players,

 

[FrogReaver]

What's the point of having the requirement that the phrasing be reasonable if you're just going to alter the wording after the fact to make any phrasing reasonable? The spell has that requirement to make the player think about his phrasing. If he phrases the suggestion in such a way that it's unreasonable, it should fail. Yes there are ways to make most suggestions reasonable and it's the player's job to find those ways.

If the suggested action is unreasonable sure. Something like go find a devil and sell your soul is most likely unreasonable. The unreasonableness for me is not about the why, it’s about the action itself.

 

[Hexmage-EN]

that’s more pedantry. “The thing you desire most is 100miles north of here. Go there now.” I can always add words to fulfill whatever requirement you set.

I don’t find it to be worthwhile to be pedantic with the players. There are nearly always ways to word the suggestion such that they get the exact outcome they desire. If the basic course of action they declare could be arrived at via some other words then I’d allow it.

Normally I'm a "yes, and" kind of DM. I definitely let players get away with things in my previous campaign that by the rules they shouldn't have.

My take on Suggestion specifically is colored by my desire to feature yuan-ti heavily in a campaign, creatures that can all cast Suggestion. In looking online for how other DMs have handled this I've actually seen advice to remove the Suggestion spell from the yuan-ti and replace it with something else to keep game sessions from being bogged down by arguments over what is "reasonable". I don't want to go that far, but I do want a clear and consistent ruling on what the yuan-ti could force PCs to do with Suggestion.

Let's take a look at related spells:

• Command: One word, wis save, first level, one round, many possible options.
• Charm Person: Charm effect, wis save (with advantage in combat), first level, one hour, considers the caster a trusted friend, breaks if attacked.
• Dominate Person: Wis save same as charm person and effectively complete telepathic control, one minute, but can be upcast to last up to 8 hours. Target makes a new save when they take damage.

Now on to Suggestion.

• Suggestion: One or two sentences to describe a course of activity. It does not charm, although if you're immune to charm, you're immune to suggestion. Wis save, concentration 8 hours, must sound reasonable, breaks if attacked.

Like Command, the spell is very open-ended in what compulsion the caster can place. Unlike Charm Person, it does not specify that the affected creature would do anything a friend who trusts you would be willing to do. Unlike Dominate Person, you cannot give new commands (note, though, that Dominate Person at 5th-level lasts one minute and takes a casting at 8th-level to last the same eight hour duration that the 2nd-level Suggestion does).

Suggestion is most like an 8th-level casting of Dominate Person where the caster for whatever reason only uses it to issue one long-term command. The only limit to Suggestion is that it must sound "reasonable". If a fighter is in combat with a yuan-ti malison that is clearly another sword stroke away from death, would a Suggestion from it to "run away as far as you can" be "reasonable"?

To go back to the scenario presented in the OP, would an aboleth in combat find the extremely vague Suggestion to "naughty word off" "reasonable"?

 

[jgsugden]

How is this anything but a great setup for further adventure?

 

[Snarf Zagyg]

There is always a tension in gaming. One that a DM needs to guard against.

A DM can be a master storyteller. They can prepare the most amazing narrative, and look forward the hours, days, or even weeks of enjoyment as the players explore a fabulous realm.

And then, something happens. A bad die roll. A good die roll. A PC goes left instead of right. A PC uses a spell, or an item, in a way that was never expected or intended. And hours of planning and magic go out the window!

But that's only one way to look at it. Another way is that the DM is not the sole master story teller. That the game is emergent in the interactions at the table. The true magic comes from the unexpected. The best stories, the ones you tell years from now, happen when someone goes the wrong way, when the mighty demon is not defeated by the slow bog of hit point deletion, but by a cunning use of a second level spell. When the Tomb of Horrors is defeated by one guy and his orc henchmen.

Let it be. Roll with it.

 

[FrogReaver]

Normally I'm a "yes, and" kind of DM. I definitely let players get away with things in my previous campaign that by the rules they shouldn't have.

My take on Suggestion specifically is colored by my desire to feature yuan-ti heavily in a campaign, creatures that can all cast Suggestion. In looking online for how other DMs have handled this I've actually seen advice to remove the Suggestion spell from the yuan-ti and replace it with something else to keep game sessions from being bogged down by arguments over what is "reasonable". I don't want to go that far, but I do want a clear and consistent ruling on what the yuan-ti could force PCs to do with Suggestion.

Let's take a look at related spells:

• Command: One word, wis save, first level, one round, many possible options.
• Charm Person: Charm effect, wis save (with advantage in combat), first level, one hour, considers the caster a trusted friend, breaks if attacked.
• Dominate Person: Wis save same as charm person and effectively complete telepathic control, one minute, but can be upcast to last up to 8 hours. Target makes a new save when they take damage.

Now on to Suggestion.

- Suggestion: One or two sentences to describe a course of activity. It does not charm, although if you're immune to charm, you're immune to suggestion. Wis save, concentration 8 hours, must sound reasonable, breaks if attacked.

Like Command, the spell is very open-ended in what compulsion the caster can place. Unlike Charm Person, it does not specify that the affected creature would do anything a friend who trusts you would be willing to do. Unlike Dominate Person, you cannot give new commands (note, though, that Dominate Person at 5th-level lasts one minute and takes a casting at 8th-level to last the same eight hour duration that the 2nd-level Suggestion does).

Suggestion is most like an 8th-level casting of Dominate Person where the caster for whatever reason only uses it to issue one long-term command. The only limit to Suggestion is that it must sound "reasonable". If a fighter is in combat with a yuan-ti malison that is clearly another sword stroke away from death, would a Suggestion from it to "run away as far as you can" be "reasonable"?

To go back to the scenario presented in the OP, would an aboleth in combat find the extremely vague Suggestion to "naughty word off" "reasonable"?

Just curious, would you even bat an eye if he had suggested to a goblin To F off?