D&D 5E Suggestion: Broken?

[MarkB]

It shouldn't work.

Even if the PC had the means to telepathically communicate (bearing in mind only the Aboleth has telepathy and can stop listening at any time shutting the PC out from responding) the Aboleth needs to hear and understand the PC.

Yeah, but those are two separate requirements. It can hear the caster because they're standing within 30 feet of it, and it can understand them because they're in telepathic communication with it.

And sure, it could relinquish that communication, but from its viewpoint, why would it do so? It's not going to know it's in trouble within the time it takes to mentally project two monosyllabic words.

 

[dave2008]

I'm running a game. The party goes out on to a lake that apparently had something that was influencing people to sacrifice to it. It's an Aboleth, because Aboleth's. I wasn't expecting them to do this, so I was like "Cool, I get to play an Aboleth". Anyway, it tries talking to them telepathically, asking for its usual offerings, and they talk back, initiating conversation. It begins offering all their heart's desires. One of the characters decides to piss it off. It was a hysterical moment.

The Aboleth Attacks. That character, the one who wanted to piss it off, on his first turn, still responding telepathically to it, says "I cast Suggestion. I tell it to f*** off." It rolls a 6...

...

...

It's not immune to being Charmed. It doesn't speak common, but while the Spell has a verbal component, it just says you "Suggest" a course of action, it doesn't say the suggestion itself has to be verbal, and he was in a telepathic conversation with it. And the Aboleth is not immune to being charmed.

So...it eff's off? It just leaves? An Aboleth? A CR 10 creature just leaves due to a 2nd lvl spell because of a low roll? I'm just...I'm flabbergasted.

Anyone else had that experience?

In this particular case it seems, as @Flamestrike pointed out, you ruled incorrectly and the spell should not have worked.

However, the bigger question is: have I ever had a monster sidelined by a single action (typically spells)? The answer for most long time DMs would be: of course, it happens. That is the nature of a single d20 roll resolution system. Sometimes the roll doesn't go your way. With experience, you learn to treat it as an opportunity and not an excuse.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

It seems a bit implausible that a spoken instruction is intelligible to anyone underwater without the aid of some additional magic.

 

[dave2008]

Yeah, but those are two separate requirements. It can hear the caster because they're standing within 30 feet of it, and it can understand them because they're in telepathic communication with it.

And sure, it could relinquish that communication, but from its viewpoint, why would it do so? It's not going to know it's in trouble within the time it takes to mentally project two monosyllabic words.

However, that is not how it is explained in the OP: "...still responding telepathically to it, says "I cast Suggestion. I tell it to f*** off." It rolls a 6..."

There was no hearing involved, I bet other requirements weren't met either (like I don't think they could see it from the description), and as noted the PC can 't initiate the telepathic command anyway.

 

[Benjamin Olson]

I've told this story before, but it's a favorite. My Bard once successfully Suggestioned the massive Devil the big bad summoned with his dying breath to think we weren't worth his trouble and he should just go back through the portal he came out of. Now certainly we all felt bad for the DM for having bought and painted a spectacular Devil and getting to plop it down on the mat for less than a round, but it is one of my all time favorite D&D moments and probably more memorable for everyone there than the fight would have been. At first blush, stories like this make the spell seem ridiculously overpowered. But looking at the details from all sides it seems much more balanced.

There was no way "just go home, we're not worth the bother" would be a "reasonable" suggestion if battle was actually joined, or even if the Devil had a real dog in the fight rather than being semi-unwillingly brought in. After that round the portal would have closed and there would be no chance for this to work so simply. My Bard had to win initiative and then forgo all violent action and use her last spell slot on a save or suck spell with no idea what this Devil was, whether he was immune, whether the DM would deem the suggestion reasonable, or whatever. I think since I was using the magic lute that gave +1 to her spell save DC that she even had to drop her dual magic daggers while staring down a Devil. It was a complete hail mary that I wouldn't have even tried if I thought we stood a real chance against that Devil. Then the Devil had to fail the roll, which in this case required I think getting less than a 4 on the die, but the dice were with us that day, clearly.

And look at the opportunity costs, because they chose this instead of any other spell they could have chosen. Out of combat Suggestion is liable to start combat or at least make enemies if someone succeeds the save, and if they fail you still might fail to come up with something reasonable or phrase it in a way where it is actually effective. There is often simply no useful Suggestion to make. It only works "in combat" under narrow circumstances, based entirely on the DM's subjective reading of the target's psychology, and is a concentration spell which may then require hours of concentrating. My character kept a spell as one of her spells known that while very powerful every time she successfully used it, actually only got successfully used a grand total of 3 times in the campaign, and the Devil was the only time where it went off 100% without a snag.

The reason it often does not go off without a snag is that, per the spell, "if the suggested activity can be completed in a shorter time, the spell ends when the subject finishes what it was asked to do". It is hard to both word a suggestion to be reasonable and ensure that it will not be technically completed prematurely, and hence break the spell. "Leave" is a pretty good combat suggestion when there is a closing portal for the enemy to then no be able to return through, but had it been a stable one the Devil would have left through it, thus completing the spell, and then immediately been free of the spell and able to change his mind and come straight back.

It is an absolute favorite spell of mine because, when the stars align, it is incredibly powerful and can completely shake up the narrative. But that doesn't mean the stars are often in alignment, just that it is very memorable when they are.

 

[Jfdlsjfd]

My PCs often add something that explicitely takes 8 hours (or more) to accomplish to avoid the "drop your weapon" suggestion that only results in the target picking it up right away. Usually it's not "leave" but "leave the premise and go to XYZ" XYZ being more than 8 hours away.

 

[Flamestrike]

The more I think about it, the more I feel it literally needs to hear (not telepathically ubderstand) the command.

It wouldn't work if you held up a sign in a language you both understood, and a wouldnt work if you used sign language you both understood.

I don't agree 'hear' should be parsed separate from 'understood' either. I think the intent is the communication must be verbal (part of the components of the spell) and it is those words spoken that must be understood by the target.

You can't for example utter gibberish it can hear while holding up a sign with the command written on it that the creature can understand.

 

[Flamestrike]

The more I think about it, the more I feel it literally needs to hear (not telepathically ubderstand) the command.

It wouldn't work if you held up a sign in a language you both understood, and it wouldnt work if you used sign language you both understood.

I don't agree 'hear' should be parsed separate from 'understood' either. I think the intent is the communication must be verbal (part of the components of the spell) and it is those words spoken that must be understood by the target.

You can't for example utter gibberish it can hear while holding up a sign with the command written on it that the creature can understand.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

Suggestion should not work this way. The suggestion needs to at least sound reasonable to work.

 

[MarkB]

Suggestion should not work this way. The suggestion needs to at least sound reasonable to work.

Ah, the eternal debate of Suggestion. What does it mean for something to "sound reasonable"?

In this instance, if the party are of reasonably high level and a potential threat to the aboleth, isn't it a fairly reasonable course of action for it to retreat and put some distance between itself and them, and then try to neutralise them using less direct means?