Suggestions for a "what are RPGs"/"how to play RPGs" resources

thefutilist

Adventurer
If you CANNOT introduce anything that doesn't follow exactly from what came before, then it is going to be a pretty short game, because once the current scene is played out, all that will be left is "Oh, did that cause something else to happen?" Heck, NO TYPE OF PLAY, trad, nar, whatever, is as restrictive as THAT, maybe classic dungeon crawls, but even those have a 'town phase' where brand new stuff can happen.

I don't think what Baker is saying is empty, I just think he only intends it in a pretty narrow sense, and beyond that you rely on a sense of appropriateness to the genre, coupled with transparency.

It's an interesting topic. In the type of play I do, it's not that you're never introducing anything new, it's that the criteria for introducing new stuff is heavily constrained.

I think I've written about this type of structure before but to lay it out again.


step one: create a cast of characters with conflicting interests

step two: scene frame them together, roughly based on 'in world' considerations.

step three: a conflict may arise, use type B resolution to resolve it.

Rinse and repeat step two and three until there are no conflicting interests.


One of the huge differences between the above style and PbtA is the criteria for the introduction of new stuff. If you're only using type B resolution you can't introduce new stuff. If you're only scene framing based on pre-established characters, you aren't really introducing new stuff.

As you point out. In something like Apocalypse World you're constantly introducing stuff based on player/character interest and the principles. You introduce the locusts to give impetus to the story and produce milieu. If you don't care about giving impetus to the story or generating milieu, then they're not part of the criteria and so you don't get the locusts. Or you'd get the locusts if they were established as one of the characters in step one. In that case we'd know they're in the scene already and would be subject to type B resolution rather than being created as a consequence of Type A resolution.

Anyway apologies for banging this drum again, it's just that the older school Narrativist games (mostly) use the above structure and Type B resolution. The Type A, no-myth Narrativist games of today (such as Apocalypse World) use an entirely different one.

Although maybe it's best to just cede terminology. I was speaking to a friend about Sorcerer the other day and he said 'so it's a more like a sim game that doesn't care about story at all?'. And I replied 'exactly.'
 

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pemerton

Legend
I think I've written about this type of structure before but to lay it out again.


step one: create a cast of characters with conflicting interests

step two: scene frame them together, roughly based on 'in world' considerations.

step three: a conflict may arise, use type B resolution to resolve it.

Rinse and repeat step two and three until there are no conflicting interests.

<snip>

the older school Narrativist games (mostly) use the above structure and Type B resolution. The Type A, no-myth Narrativist games of today (such as Apocalypse World) use an entirely different one.
I'm not sure where you fit in Burning Wheel - it's not as old as Sorcerer, is older than Apocalypse World, doesn't use Type A resolution, I would say doesn't quite use Type B resolution either, and has some no-myth aspects to it.
 

thefutilist

Adventurer
I'm not sure where you fit in Burning Wheel - it's not as old as Sorcerer, is older than Apocalypse World, doesn't use Type A resolution, I would say doesn't quite use Type B resolution either, and has some no-myth aspects to it.

I'd put it in the no-myth category as far as super structure goes and its resolution is probably closer to type A. I'd go so far as to say that Burning Wheel and Underworld are the two primary texts from which modern Narrativism descends, with Burning Wheel being the most influential in terms of people actually reading the text. Didn't Luke actually coin the term fail forward? Roll when it's dramatic and uncertain (Burning wheel). Challenge the players based on their priorities (Burning Wheel) Rules are rules and not suggestions (Burning Wheel). Adam Koebel of Dungeon World was greatly influenced by Burning Wheel and a load of what passes as common PbtA wisdom seems to have originated in Burning Wheel.
 

pemerton

Legend
I'd put it in the no-myth category as far as super structure goes and its resolution is probably closer to type A. I'd go so far as to say that Burning Wheel and Underworld are the two primary texts from which modern Narrativism descends, with Burning Wheel being the most influential in terms of people actually reading the text. Didn't Luke actually coin the term fail forward? Roll when it's dramatic and uncertain (Burning wheel). Challenge the players based on their priorities (Burning Wheel) Rules are rules and not suggestions (Burning Wheel). Adam Koebel of Dungeon World was greatly influenced by Burning Wheel and a load of what passes as common PbtA wisdom seems to have originated in Burning Wheel.
I don't know if it was Luke Crane or Ron Edwards who coined "fail forward" - I think Edwards also called it "no whiffing".

But I don't think BW is Type A - or at least, I interpret Type A as "if you do it, you do it" and that is not BW. (HeroQuest Revised is also very similar to BW in it's explicit textual rejection of "if you do it, you do it".)
 

clearstream

(He, Him)
I don't know if it was Luke Crane or Ron Edwards who coined "fail forward" - I think Edwards also called it "no whiffing".

But I don't think BW is Type A - or at least, I interpret Type A as "if you do it, you do it" and that is not BW. (HeroQuest Revised is also very similar to BW in it's explicit textual rejection of "if you do it, you do it".)
With the strong caveat that I haven't played BW only TB2 which isn't quite the same, I'm noting this rules text

You make tests during dramatic moments, when the outcome is uncertain.​
When a player sets out a task for his character and states his intent, it is the GM’s job to inform him of the consequences of failure before the dice are rolled. “If you fail this…” should often be heard at the table. Let the players know the consequences of their actions.​
Failure is not the end of the line, but it is complication that pushes the story in another direction. Once that is said, everyone knows what’s at stake and play can continue smoothly no matter what the result of the roll is.​
We roll dice when a conflict arises.​
When a test is failed, the GM introduces a complication.​
"If nothing is at stake, say “yes” [to the player’s request], whatever they’redoing. Just go along with them. If they ask for information, give it tothem. If they have their characters go somewhere, they’re there. If theywant it, it’s theirs."*​
Unless there is something at stake in the story you have created, don’t bother with the dice. Keep moving, keep describing, keep roleplaying. But as soon as a character wants something that he doesn’t have, needs to know something he doesn’t know, covets something that someone else has, roll the dice.​

*The BW rules appear to incorporate this DotV rule.

Your documented play from last year shows some of this stuff in action

he did the only thing he could think of - as someone whose Circles include the Path of Spite, and who has a reputation as ill-favoured for himself and others, he looked to see if a bloodletting or surgical necromancer or similar ill-omened type might be nearby the scene!​
But the Circles check failed: and so no friendly bloodletter appeared, but rather the Death Artist Thoth, who - for reasons not yet clear, but certainly not wholesome - carries a lock of the hair of Aedhros's dead spouse​
Was Thoth in sight before the roll or added as a complication after? If the latter, then this Circles test looks like type A. But then

Today's session began with the Surgery attempt to treat Alicia's mortal wound. It failed badly (we have the notes somewhere, but from memory the Ob was 14 (7 doubled for no tools) and 1 success was achieved), and so her Health check to avoid acquiring the Mortally Wounded in the Head trait will be against Ob 19. A roll of the dice determined that it will take her 8 months to regain full consciousness, at which point she will then have to recover from a Traumatic Wound.​
Was "8 months to regain full consciousness" in sight before the roll? Possibly this example follows a common pattern for type B. Which is, rather than exhaustively and inefficiently listing all scalable and forking consequences to meet the standard of informing player of the consequences of failure before the roll, GM indicates only their form or direction (e.g. "this might make it worse")... which here was likely clearly enough known to all.

So far, one might possibly interpret the rules text "When a player sets out a task for his character and states his intent" to mean what it says: GM indicates consequences up front (i.e. it's type B) only when players set out tasks for their characters. Whereas for other tests only "When a test is failed, the GM introduces a complication" applies (making it type A). Said other tests being triggered not by player intent, but by dramatic moments and conflict. Or one could understand the complication as simply being the concrete form given to the consequences indicated up front.

Here's another example of a test from that same session, triggered I assume by player forcing matters along (intent)

Thoth, who has an Instinct to Always collect bits and pieces, also couldn't help but look around for Surgery tools, and succeeded on the Ob 10 test (Perception rolled for Beginner's Luck). A die of fate roll indicated that one corpse was available for collection, and Aedhros helped Thoth carry it off.​
That's followed by something that perhaps was entertained as a dramatic moment the situation was ripe for
At one point, something particularly grotesque happened (I think, as narrated by my friend, a bit of the body Aedhros was holding onto sloughed off) and a Steel test was called for and failed. Hesitating, Aedhros dropped the body, and it nearly landed in the water - but Thoth, driven by his desire for corpses!, succeeded on a Power test to not let go.​
The Steel test here could count as an example of one of those "other tests" prompted by a dramatic moment: so type A (the body nearly fell in the water). In any case, I expect in play that the shift between types is fluid, and the rules wordings seem open to interpreting as

if we can see consequences, then we are going to roll dice, and then we are going to see consequences (type B/A)​

But those same rules can be interpreted as stating when to engage each type

when it's a dramatic moment or conflict, we roll dice, and then we are going to see consequences (type A)​
when player states their intent and its a task, if we can see consequences, then we are going to roll dice (type B)​
And sometimes these cases will overlap, leading to the merged type B/A form just above. I think what BW is going for is sensitivity to the ripeness of the situation and to the desire of players to force matters to a head. The former has the capacity to be wide in scope - to admit all sorts of possible additions to the fiction that are consistent with theme - while the latter has a tendency to be narrow in scope - urging tight extrapolation from present situation. The Circles test turns up Thoth. The Surgery test worsens or does not ameliorate Alicia's trauma.
So this quality - thematic scope - interacts with sequence (type A or B) to yield a gamut of types. Potentially letting type B/A above be reunderstood as

if the situation is ripe with wide thematic scope, then if we roll dice, we are going to see consequences which may be unexpected (type A-wide, may turn up Thoth)​
if player forces things to a head in a way with narrow thematic scope, then if we can see consequences (their form is indicated up front), we are going to roll dice (type B-narrow, may protract Alicia's convalence)​
And these can be paired in the opposite way, producing two more sub-types. One wouldn't in any case suppose that the type A / type B binary could possibly fully capture the subtlety and fluidity of actual play. It's more a conceptually useful simplification to understand and be intentional about consequences resolution.
 
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Old Fezziwig

Bless his heart, it's Fezziwig alive again!
*The BW rules appear to incorporate this DotV rule.
If I recall correctly, BW Revised (the 2004? 2005 edition) explicitly quotes Baker on Say Yes or Roll the Dice. I don't think the Gold and Gold Revised texts maintain that part of Revised's language, and I own but have not read the 2002/original version of the rules, so I don't know if it's there.

Edit: it's p 75 of BWR Book 1 under the heading Vincent's Admonition. It's p 72 of BWGR under the same heading. It's not in the original text, which makes sense given the pub dates.
 
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thefutilist

Adventurer
I don't know if it was Luke Crane or Ron Edwards who coined "fail forward" - I think Edwards also called it "no whiffing".

But I don't think BW is Type A - or at least, I interpret Type A as "if you do it, you do it" and that is not BW. (HeroQuest Revised is also very similar to BW in it's explicit textual rejection of "if you do it, you do it".)
I was thinking of Type A as having causal effects not related to character action but I'm conflating a load of things.

There's the trigger. When we roll.

Whether the roll is determining the effect of a characters action or other stuff, or both.

How much the consequences are pre-established, and what consequences are pre-established.


Ramble about triggers:

In BW as I understand it. On a success all we know is that you get your intent. On a failure the GM can not give you your intent or they can give you your intent + complications.

In HQ, I think you either get your intent or not dependant on the dice.

In game terms, when I've played HQ at least. This often means clarifying intent if the GM decides what I'm doing requires a roll. Same with BW.

Example: I'm talking to the King and saying how bad it looks if he executes the prisoners. The GM may ask me straight out 'so your trying to shame him into releasing the prisoners?' I say yeah, and we select a suitable skill and roll.

You can avoid whiff in both system by just triggering at the end of the first E in the IIEE (apologies to those who hate theory). We don't care if you're eloquent or not, or how well you do at the task, we care about the effect it has on the king.

But sometimes when playing those games. I've found that instead the following happens. I state 'I'm trying to persuade the king to release the prisoners.' Then the GM asks me which skill I'm using. We roll and then narrate.

Anyway it's a seemingly subtle difference that can have a big impact and it can also confused some people when moving between different systems.


HQ and BW care about the intent of the character.

D&D cares about how well the character executes the action.

Sorcerer cares about the effects of the action.


yet the resolution in all of them sits in a similar enough space that you can kind of move between them, which isn't the case for Apocalypse World.

Anyway thinking it through it I'm less convinced by @clearstreams split. Or rather I think there's something there but it's harder to concisely put my finger on what.
 

Old Fezziwig

Bless his heart, it's Fezziwig alive again!
In BW as I understand it. On a success all we know is that you get your intent. On a failure the GM can not give you your intent or they can give you your intent + complications.
Pretty much, though Crane explicitly discourages flat negative results (e.g., the character's intent is to pick the lock with a flat failure result of the character failing to pick the lock). It can be done, but it's not really what the BW's aiming at in its procedures -- framing the results of failure up front is only really useful in play if the results of failure aren't binary. Though it's possible that this would be useful at having the participants think more carefully about whether they should be rolling at all -- after all, if a flat negative result is all that comes to mind, maybe the stakes and situation don't demand a roll?
 

clearstream

(He, Him)
HQ and BW care about the intent of the character.

D&D cares about how well the character executes the action.
I take D&D to care about the intent of the player. For instance, here's a sequence we never see

Player: I want to climb the wall
DM: Okay, roll Strength (Athletics)
Player: 14+5 that's 19
DM: That's some real nice climbing you are doing there
Player: So I've reached the top of the wall?
DM: No, no, you're just climbing really nicely (cares only about how well the character executes the action)
Player: ... (expected to resolve their intent: reaching the top of the wall)

Where "consequences resolution" comes into this is after the first I, so that it's ICIEEC by which I mean it's Intent Consequences-indicated Initiate Execute Effect Consequences-pay-out (as part of the effect on failure, which opens the door to succeed-with-complication.) When the first C returns empty, for type B no roll is triggered (just run through the remaining IEE.)

Player: I want to climb the wall
DM: Considers whether damage from a fall would really matter here, and if there are other possible consequences... like those guards chasing the character!
Player: 14+5 that's 19
DM: You scramble swiftly up the wall
Player: Phew, so I've escaped the guards?
DM: For now, yes. They're at the bottom looking up...

A failure there might be narrated

Player: 4+5 that's 9
DM: Putting in a burst of speed one of the guards is upon you before you can even scrabble for a handhold!

Anyway, on balance, the three you list lean into type B, possibly. There's a style of play available here where rolls are fewer and scene setting is given more attention, so that consequences are properly in view.

yet the resolution in all of them sits in a similar enough space that you can kind of move between them, which isn't the case for Apocalypse World.
AW is type A, which goes like this IIEEC, so if the roll is invoked by the intent and initiation, it will yield consequences on failure. There's no need to check the situation is ripe. Maybe that's why it looks different.
 
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pemerton

Legend
Anyway thinking it through it I'm less convinced by @clearstreams split. Or rather I think there's something there but it's harder to concisely put my finger on what.
We're ad idem here.

In BW as I understand it. On a success all we know is that you get your intent. On a failure the GM can not give you your intent or they can give you your intent + complications.
That second option seems like it is drifting a bit.

From page 34 of revised: "the stated task goal and intent do not come to pass". In Gold and Gold Revised (p 31) this is reworded as "the stated intent does not come to pass".

Torchbearer 2e is different from BW here, because it does allow the GM to narrate a failure as successful intent + condition.

In game terms, when I've played HQ at least. This often means clarifying intent if the GM decides what I'm doing requires a roll. Same with BW.
I agree. I've also had this in 4e - as a GM, working with the player to get clearer on what the intent is.

Example: I'm talking to the King and saying how bad it looks if he executes the prisoners. The GM may ask me straight out 'so your trying to shame him into releasing the prisoners?' I say yeah, and we select a suitable skill and roll.
Ugly truth!

But sometimes when playing those games. I've found that instead the following happens. I state 'I'm trying to persuade the king to release the prisoners.' Then the GM asks me which skill I'm using. We roll and then narrate.
I've never quite done this. But I agree that there can be a tendency to move to skill + intent rather than a clear task. I see this as a version of Baker's "lazy play": anyway: Lazy Play vs IIEE with Teeth

This is why I posted somewhere recently that Burning Wheel doesn't meet Baker's standards for "IIEE with teeth".

(I just did a search: that post was here.)
 

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