Summon Monster... check it out

[AirElemental]

I disagree with trying to rule 0 this one, because its already a pretty limited aspect of the spell. First off, the teleport without
error spell is far more powerful than the version of it that the
archon casts. You cant travel with your archon. he cant carry
more than 50lbs with him. So you really arent getting full use
out of that spell. Secondly, even if you believe the archon
COULD refuse to do something against its alignment, thats
a pretty big assumption that the archon KNOWS its doing
something against its alignment. Just follow my logic here:
If the archon has to wait to sort out who is good, who is evil,
and whether the course of action it is commanded to do is
right or wrong, well now you've wasted 3-4 rounds. The summon monster spell doesnt say that. It says it appears and attacks
to the best of its ability. By your line of thinking caliban, the
archon MUST spend its first 2 rounds using "detect evil". also, the creature doesnt come with a phylactery of faithfulness, so unless
it stops to get all the info, it has no way of knowing its violating
its creed unless its quite obvious.

Any evil wizard casting this spell would be well advised not to TELL the archon "Hi, I'm evil, that guy is good, steal his weapon."
Note since you are using major image, you could even show the archon an image of the person you are stealing from using his sword to put an orphan or two to death, while we're at it.

or try this on for size: You tell your archon to approach the hero depicted in the illusion. he is then to tell the hero "My Master, Rao, has sent me to give word of his favour. Present now
your blade, that it might be blessed." when he presents the blade, the archon teleports back to you. All the while, the archon never knew you weren't going to bless it, and if you tell the archon your name is Rao, he has no way of being sure you arent Rao.

Clearly even my detractors have to admit that this tactic deserves
some scrutiny.

 

[Shard O'Glase]

AirElemental I do think your idea is clever, and I think it could work. Though as a DM I might not ban it I'd seriosly suggest you don't do it. I call it the shadowrun effect. In SR2 you could buy virtually any gun as a starting character as long as you had the starting cash, and starting cash isn't much of a problem for many in SR2. The basic shadowrun effect is simple, the more nasty you make your selves the more nasty I make the opposition. You want that missile launcher don't be too surprised to bump into missile launchers. Your willing to stick with a SMG and a heavy pistol, and missile launchers only come into play after lots of XP, or in some climatic encounter, and not for something as simple and common as when you pissed off the local gang because you refused to pay a toll.

Same rule here. Sure go ahead use teleporting summons to steal, just don't be surprised to wake up without any equipment when I use the same or similar tactic on you. Most people usually decide not to try find to many loopholes in my games for some reason.

 

[AirElemental]

Mutually assured destruction?
Nice story, tell it to readers digest.
(Note: I'm not being a jerk -- just quoting a song! hehe).
Well I think if a wizard is not prepared to deal with such measures, he deserves such. For instance, one of the first items
I'll craft with my wizard will be an amulet of non detection.
Then, my entire keep will be protected from teleports and ethereal folk.
The point is, I play in a campaign where my DM has done this sort of thing to us.. the players should be equally devious (if not more so). For instance, our DM had a group of Assassins that all had the ability to "Merge with a shadow, thereby becoming intangible and essentially untouchable"... they could scry us, knew where we lived, despite all our best efforts to protect.
they killed half the party and stole our best gear.
I'm not an evil aligned caster. I'm LN. But I'm seriously thinking of sending my archons to get my gear back.

 

[Nasma]

I think that the idea is clever, though a bit too powerful for the level of the spell. As far as I am concerned, if the PC's enemies do it to them as well then this tactic is OK.

 

[Zhure]

Of course, a 7th-8th level character could reduce himself to under fifty pounds easily, as long as his total starting weight was under 500 pounds, then use SM4 and have the Lantern Archon teleport him wherever.

...

oops, bummer, it's only objects. At least that loophole is closed.

Greg

 

[Kae'Yoss]

(Note: I'm not being a jerk -- just quoting a song! hehe).

Sure! Can I start quoting songs now? And no one ban me for using "explicit lyrics", noone hate me for insulting his mother, I was just quoting songs! hee hee.

No, seriously: what you say is what you say, no matter if you thought of it yourself or if you have to quote someone.

Well I think if a wizard is not prepared to deal with such measures, he deserves such. For instance, one of the first items
I'll craft with my wizard will be an amulet of non detection.
Then, my entire keep will be protected from teleports and ethereal folk.

Trying to be smarter than the DM? You'll lose that one. The DM always has the last word. In the end, he will just say "Cyric got bored of your castle and wants to build a temple there, he's just released a million demons in the vicinity!" And you'll fall long before he has to invoke the gods!

The point is, I play in a campaign where my DM has done this sort of thing to us.. the players should be equally devious (if not more so). For instance, our DM had a group of Assassins that all had the ability to "Merge with a shadow, thereby becoming intangible and essentially untouchable"... they could scry us, knew where we lived, despite all our best efforts to protect.
they killed half the party and stole our best gear.
I'm not an evil aligned caster. I'm LN. But I'm seriously thinking of sending my archons to get my gear back.

So your DM's a bad one that can't create a decent story without breaking the rules for story's sake. That's bad for you, but inventing devious plans won't help, as your DM will surely retaliate twice over.

 

[Blacksad]

So your DM's a bad one that can't create a decent story without breaking the rules for story's sake. That's bad for you, but inventing devious plans won't help, as your DM will surely retaliate twice over.

[I act like my age urges me to]
I'm a bad DM! I'm a bad DM!
I use NPC with 10 ranks in perform with only one hit dice, I've broken the rules for story sake.
I'm a bad DM! I'm a bad DM!
[/I act like my age urges me to]

Seriously, it depends on different way of DMing: you break the rules, to suit your campaign need (like Rokugan) and the setting is the funny part;
or you try to create a setting based on the rules (like Technomancer for GURPS) and the rules are the funny part of the game.

I don't think that he break the rules, just that he uses them to their maximum (he doesn't create mercurial greatsword), and has fun with it.

and as a devious DM, I can say that when my player create devious plans, I'm happy and reward them.

back on topic:

if you want another method to clearly limit this technique, you could use a point system for alignment like the honor system in Rokugan, so that a protection from evil works against an evil spellcaster, but if he has a lots of good points (due to casting good spells) protection from good will also work (and that evil spellcaster will have a harder time controlling demon as some of them have natural protection from good).

but apart from saying that using a good spell is a good act and an evil spellcaster shouldn't use them, their isn't a mechanical restriction on this.

 

[Kae'Yoss]

OK, breaking the rules ain't bad in general. If, through a series of coincidences the player would die, and you decide to reroll that last damage roll to rescue him, I won't say you're a bad DM.

But if do things like saying "no, your legen lore spell won't work" just because you don't want the player to learn secrets you wanted them to find out the hard way, you do no good job. If the player surprises you by using fly to get to the villain (let's say, a fighter without spellcasting ability) after all (although you didn't want him to reach that one) and you make a heavy storm come up on a sunny, cloudless, calm day, making it impossible for the PC to fly there, you're a lousy GM. If the players take every measure to make their location undetectable to sneak up on a villain they have shadowed for days, and, though he can't possibly know that they come for him, decides to triple the watches just at the moment they go in, you have no concept of rewarding the player's efforts.

When you're caught off guard by the players, that can well be because you didn't consider all (or even most) contigencies, and you didn't know what they're capable of. If you ruin the player's plans now with some "higher force" just to save your story is bad DMing!

Of course, if you make the villains devious ones, letting them know a lot of things and capable of a lot of things, without giving them godlike (read: DM-bestowed) power, and the players react by being devious themselves, you should reward them. But a DM who regularly breaks the rules in order to make the players weaker, just because he hasn't counted on them doing what they did, this DM will surely punish devious players for "trying to ruin the story"