Summon Nature's Ally vs. Summon Monster

[Thikket]

Ahh yes, a much needed dose of hardcore hope-smashing from the famous Hypersmurf! Now I feel truly welcomed to the boards! I can only hope to aspire one day to your zen-like mastery of the rules. (Heh, I bet you get that a lot.)

When it's too good to be true, it usually is. Although, I wouldn't have a problem summoning that ol' genie for every other effect that it comes with!

And no wonder I couldn't find the celestial charger - I don't have the books, just the 3.5eSRD. Or maybe I'm just really blind.

Even with Smurfian Enlightenment (heaven forbid I actually read the spell description), I think SNA spells are pretty nifty. Today I'm going to go over all the SM spells and see if there's anything fun hidden in those, too. Thanks to the spontaneous casting of summon nature's ally, I've actually considered playing a druid. So I suppose it was a good improvement, at least for me!

And youspoonybard (and everyone else!): after scouting these boards for so long, there's no way I could contribute enough humor and interesting tactics to match yours. I really do appreciate these message boards; they make me laugh, make me think, and make me happy.

I can't think of a better collection of random text strings on the internet! You guys are all too cool.

Waiting in the weeds (and perusing Summon Monster spells),
Thikket

 

[Thikket]

Some neat uses for SM spells, & other observations

Alright, I finished going through the SM lists for utility-spell yielding summons. Summon Monster is of less utility overall than SNA, since one can't spontaneously cast Summon Monster (unless one's a sorcerer or bard, but then it uses a known spell slot, etc, etc). But there's still some minor neat stuff.

Oh, and I didn't bother writing about any rockin-combat summons. But I did notice a few things (see below). Also, I left out a few summons that were obviously inferior to summons of equal or lesser level.

SMIV: Archon, lantern. The freak with 4 HP. At will aid, continual flame, and detect evil. My question is: do spells with Durationermanent expire when the summoned creature leaves, too? I'm really not sure, but they may well poof, just from what Hypersmurf posted about summoning in general. Anyway, if not, you can use this to bypass the 50 gp cost of continual light, albeit a 4th level spell. The good part is that it's at-will, so you could have the fellow make you tons of continual light torches: at least 7 per cast. That's not bad, since you could sell 'em or use 'em. But only if Durationermanent isn't dispelled.

SMVI: There are a few monsters here that have some interesting utility spells.
-Bralani: 2/day cure serious wounds (CL 5). Total healing 6d8+10. Not too impressive, especially for a 6th level spell, but it lets an arcane caster have access to some healing in a pinch (besides the old polymorph trick). And you can always summon it to smack down your enemies and heal your friends afterwards, if it survives.
-Janni: See my above post. The interesting thing is, you can use Summon Nature's Ally to get a Janni a spell-level earlier.

SMVII
-Avoral: At will detect magic, dispel magic, light, see invisibility (CL 8), at will true seeing (CL 14), Lay on Hands 66 HP. This provides even better healing than the Bralani, but it's still nothing spectacular. A short duration true seeing makes this somewhat worthwhile, though, I'd say.
-Djinni: See my above post.
-Devil, Bone: At will dimensional anchor, fly, major image, wall of ice (CL 12). Even with the short durations, these spells could come in handy. Maybe.

SMVIII
-Lillend: 4/day cure light wounds (CL 6), 3/day darkness, 3/day knock, 1/day speak with animals, 1/day speak with plants (CL 10). Total healing 4d8+20. I guess the knocks could be useful to a cleric summoner.

SMIX: Although a 9th level spell, I really like the summon Leonal. It has at will polymorph and wall of force, 3/day each of cure critical wounds, neutralize poison, and remove disease, 1/day heal (CL 10), and Lay on Hands for 114 HP total. Total healing is 12d8+244, which I'd consider worth it for an arcane spellcaster any day. Heal is good stuff.


One last thing before I split: I noticed that some of the Summon Monster 6 spells had CR 9 creatures, while some of the Summon Monster X>6 spells had CR 6 creatures. Some careful study could well result in certain creatures being the best combat ones for that spell level. And when a Thaumaturgist summons once per combat as a free action (Contingent Conjuration), I think it's pretty good to invest some careful study.

I'd love to stick around and crack some more corny jokes, but I've got to run... And I see you all have your tomatoes ready anyway.

Rushing through the reeds,
Thikket

 

[Staffan]

Re: Some neat uses for SM spells, & other observations

My question is: do spells with Durationermanent expire when the summoned creature leaves, too? I'm really not sure, but they may well poof, just from what Hypersmurf posted about summoning in general.

My interpretation is that spells with an actual duration end (including permanent spells). However, instant spells "remain", or rather their effects.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Re: Re: Some neat uses for SM spells, & other observations

My interpretation is that spells with an actual duration end (including permanent spells). However, instant spells "remain", or rather their effects.

Yup.

Cure Light Wounds hangs around; Continual Flame goes out.

(How many Lantern Archons does it take to change a light bulb?)

-Hyp.

 

[James McMurray]

What's a light bulb?

 

[Hypersmurf]

What's a light bulb?

Sorry, I'm using 3.5 terminology.

It was called a small bulb before the revision.

-Hyp.

 

[Plane Sailing]

Don't forget the Lantern Archons' excellent value as a messenger - teleport without error (greater teleport?) at will with up to 50lbs of material has been used again and again and again by the PC's in my game to transport messages and equipment.

(Why use Drawmij's instant summoning when you can send a lantern archon to fetch it for you?)

Cheers

 

[Number47]

Too bad that summoned creatures cannot teleport (or summon or call) in 3.5

 

[Hypersmurf]

Source?

"A summoned creature cannot use any innate summoning abilities it may have, and it refuses to cast any spells that would cost it XP, or to use any spell-like abilities that would cost XP if they were spells."

It doesn't mention teleportation or calling...?

-Hyp.

 

[Thikket]

"A summoned monster cannot summon or otherwise conjure another creature, nor can it use any teleportation or planar travel abilities. Creatures cannot be summoned into an environment that cannot support them."

Emphasis mine.

This text is found in both Summon Monster I and Summon Nature's Ally I spell descriptions in my copy of the 3.5e SRD. I believe this is to what Number 47 is referring.

I was surprised about it, too.

**
3.5e Revision Staff Meeting:
Main Editor: "I think we need to do some more tweaking with the summon spells."
YesMan#1: "Yes sir!"
YesMan#2: "I agree!"
Covert Wizards Spymaster: "Well, information shows that some guy who goes by the handle Plane Sailing was using the teleportation abilities of certain creatures in an intelligent and clever fashion."
Main Editor: "Intelligent?! Clever!? Gentlemen, these words directly conflict with our theory of 3.5edition. Remove the ability. And, take out that thing about different sized ranged weapons as well. Maybe that'll piss off that Hypersmurf fellow."
**


Just kiddin'. At first I didn't think I'd like 3.5e... But it's grown on me quickly, and I think I'll be incorporating many of the rules, if not all of them, in my games.

Frolicing in the forest,
Thikket

No yes men were harmed in the making of this post.