Summon Nature's Ally vs. Summon Monster

[youspoonybard]

I was under the false impression that Animal Growth only targetted one animal. My bad.

Yeah. Animal Growth is crazy like that.

It's Righteous Might on multiple targets, and lasts 100x as long : P.

I suppose one of the bears wouldn't grab, but would ready an action to whap the mage as he tries to teleport.

And although Animal Growth is a Sor/Wiz spell now, who would actually learn/prepare it? Since the animals aren't friendly to you, and you can't cast it on your companion, and you can't summon anything up to help you, I couldn't imagine a Sorc/Wiz having the spell on hand.

 

[DevoutlyApathetic]

For exactly that reason. Why would he memorize a spell that he can duplicate with a spontaneous spell? He limits himself by memorizing Neutralize Poison instead of another 4th level spell that he can't duplicate with SNA IV.

Yes, of course nevermind that the unicorn is decent in combat and can also cast three first level spells and a third in addition to Neutralize poison. I'm not all that certain it shouldn't be on the SNV list.

Of course, a LN, or NE druid can't summon his happy Unicorn

Real druids are TN. Others get what they deserve.

edit: Of course. Neutralize poison is a 3rd level druid spell, so this logic isn't completely valid. Oh well.

It was more than just the straight equivalencey thingee. Even if it was just 'Any 4th level spell'=Neutralize Poison it'd still be worth it, IMO.

Oh, and you have to be able to communicate with the Unicorn...I'd use Sylvan, if only for style.

 

[Thikket]

Hi everyone. I've been lurking here unregistered for about a year now, and I've learned a lot. I just had to post when I saw this thread, though, so here I am, all signed up.

Just a few days ago, I noticed the exact same power boost in SNA over SM, since I was having all too much fun designing a clerical summoner using the new (to me) Thaumaturgist prestige class. After I had a nice little build, I thought, "Oh.. crap.. I wonder if summon monster was downtweaked." Well, anyway, I compared some stuff briefly and noted that druidic spontaneous SNA casting is pretty rocking.

Specifically, I saw the unicorn, and thought of a 7th level druid versus a 7th level cleric. At the end of the day, they can each swap out a 4th level spell to get some good ol' fashioned healing. The cleric does a Cure Critical on one target for 4d8+7... The druid summons a unicorn which he commands (in common) to heal multiple targets for a total of 5d8+20 (three cure lights and a cure moderate at CL 5). So the SNA spell is not only more useful, it's actually better at healing than a cleric's healing around that level (and you can compare higher SNA spells summoning multiple unicorns against higher healing spells as well).

Also, about memorizing neutralize poison instead of summoning the unicorn... The 'corn has 42 HP. One could use it for battle, then healing immediately afterwards, since it probably won't bite the dust. At 7th level, one o' them pointy horsies seems formidable to me. But I might just be crazy.

I thought that was pretty neat, so I looked for some more fun natural allies to summon.

SNAV can be used to summon a Janni for Speak with Animals (3/day) and Create Food and Water (1/day) at CL 7.
SNAV can also be used to summon a nixie for Charm Person, or more useful, Water Breathing (1/day) at CL 12.

At lower levels, the stuff you summon sometimes actually has a higher caster level than your own, which is also quite interesting. This next example takes the cake, for me:

SNAVII, a 7th level spell that can be cast by a 13th level druid. You can use it to summon a Djinni, which has CL 20 on the following:
Create Food and Water (1/day), Create Wine (1/day), Major Creation (1/day, with vegetable matter permanent), Persistent Image (1/day), and Wind Walk (1/day).
That Wind Walk can affect the Djinni itself and up to 6 other creatures for 20 hours. That alone is nice... Until you realize that Wind Walk is *also* a 7th level druid spell.

So you can either cast Wind Walk... Or you can cast SNAVII, get a Djinni, and effectively cast "Wind walk with dinner, salad, wine, pretty pictures, and a burly temporary bodyguard."

Who said airline fares were diminishing in quality, anyway?


As my final contribution for my first post ever, I'd like to point out that SNAIX can summon a grig. With a fiddle.
Maybe someone can help me out here... Explain to me -why in the world- the CR 1, two-Hit-point grig is accessable only with a 9th level spell. Oh, and it's not the Irresistable Dance... Since it's a freakin' DC 12 will save to resist (Yay, Otto's Resistable Dance...)

It makes me want to cry. I pined over the grig's SNAIX existence for quite a while, staring at the grig entry in the 3.5e SRD. I could only determine the following explanations. The designers threw grig on the list because of any or all of the following:
1) High level druids are bored of using their 9th level spells that kill everything, and would rather be totally ineffective in combat
2) All opponents of a high level druid summoning a grig are affected by Tasha's Hideous Laughter at the fact that it has exactly two hit points (DM Call)
3) The druid is in a bad mood and needs some lesser nature creature to step on
4) The wizard's toad familiar (that no longer makes his master Mr. Beefy) is hungry.
5) The designers realized they might've made a mistake like the Wind Walk thing, so they decided to pull down the power level of Summon Nature's Ally IX by making people like me cry when they read it.

Please. Someone relieve my pain. Tell me why.

Lurking in the bushes,
Thikket

 

[sithramir]

LOL that is the second funniest thing i've seen with 3.5.

That funniest being the One hundred traits where 100 is No sense of Humor (see #26) and when you check for 26 there isn't one.

Goooo sprites! You are definitely equal to that celestial unicorn~

 

[youspoonybard]

When I first saw that, I assumed it was for non-combat situations.

Like, making entire towns dance.

Entangle x3 isn't exactly overpowering, but it's useful.

 

[Thikket]

The same thought -- about making towns dance -- had crossed my mind as well (although I didn't bother mentioning it, since it was neither funny nor conducive to shortening my already way too long post). The sad part is, though... DC 12 Will save to resist. Twelve!

That means that even if the town were entirely 1st level commoners with +0 Will saving throws somehow packed into the 30' radius of effect, 40% of them on average would remain unaffected.

Meaning 40% of the townsfolk will be heaving rocks at the tiny cricket-man who is wreaking jig-havoc on the town... And the sad part is, that tiny cricket man (conjured by a spell of maximum, non-epic power) will probably DIE. (AC 18, HP 2)

But I suppose fiddling is better than having the grig attempt to grapple, with its mighty -11 check.

Oh well. At least you could summon one to make that cricket sound right after someone cracks a stupid joke. You know, jokes much like the ones I just wrote.


Or maybe sprites are just only good for drinking. (More cricket noises)


**
By the by, Sithramir reminded me. I couldn't find the stats for "Unicorn, celestial charger." Am I blind? Is it just a celestial templated unicorn (if so, that's a pretty crappy use of a 9th level spell, too)?

Hidden inside a shrubbery,
Thikket

 

[youspoonybard]

Use all of your 9th level slots to summon a trio or quartet.

4 DC 12's in a 30 ft radius will get those townsfolk for sure, and there's less messy cleanup than the old Druidic way of destroying villages (Epidemic in MotW).

The Celestial charger is in the 3.5 MM under "Unicorn".

Of course, *this* celestial charger is a 8HD celestial unicorn with 7 Cleric levels...what about *that* 8-HD celestial unicorn with 7 Fighter levels?

Ah well...

P.S. I thought your jokes were great! Plus, your first post contained more useful information/interesting reading than all of mine combined. Keep it up!

 

[Hypersmurf]

That Wind Walk can affect the Djinni itself and up to 6 other creatures for 20 hours. That alone is nice... Until you realize that Wind Walk is *also* a 7th level druid spell.

So you can either cast Wind Walk... Or you can cast SNAVII, get a Djinni, and effectively cast "Wind walk with dinner, salad, wine, pretty pictures, and a burly temporary bodyguard."

Summon Nature’s Ally
Conjuration (Summoning)
Effect: One summoned creature
Duration: 1 round/level (D)

Summoning: A summoning spell instantly brings a creature or object to a place you designate. When the spell ends or is dispelled, a summoned creature is instantly sent back to where it came from, but a summoned object is not sent back unless the spell description specifically indicates this. When the spell that summoned a creature ends and the creature disappears, all the spells it has cast expire.

-Hyp.

 

[DevoutlyApathetic]

So you can either cast Wind Walk... Or you can cast SNAVII, get a Djinni, and effectively cast "Wind walk with dinner, salad, wine, pretty pictures, and a burly temporary bodyguard."

Pure Gold.

(Curse you Hypersmurf for pointing out something important! I wanted to lose more faith in this 3.5 thing!)

 

[papa_laz]

Jig-havoc. HAH!

What will he do next?