Sundering items

[Artoomis]

First, sunder is a special term in 3e:

Sunder [General]
Prerequisites: Str 13+, Power Attack.
Benefit: When the character strikes at an opponent’s weapon, the character does not provoke an attack of opportunity.

This refers to:

Strike a weapon [Standard][AoO: Yes]
Description: A character can use a melee attack with a slashing or bludgeoning weapon to strike a weapon or shield that a character's opponent is holding. The attacking weapon must be no more than one size category smaller than the weapon attacked. (Treat a buckler as Small, a small shield as Medium-size, a large shield as Large, and a tower shield as Huge.) Doing so provokes an attack of opportunity from the opponent because the character is diverting it's attention from the opponent to the opponent's armaments.

Which is different from:

Strike an object [Standard][Aoo: Maybe]
Attacking an inanimate, immobile object not in use by a character does not provoke an attack of opportunity. An inanimate, immobile object has an AC of:
10 - 5 for no Dexterity + its size modifier.
Immobile objects are easy to hit. With a melee weapon, the character gets a +4 bonus to the attack roll. If a character takes a full-round action to line up a shot (as with the coup de grace against a helpless foe), the character gets an automatic hit with a melee weapon and a +5 attack bonus with a ranged weapon. (Objects, however, are immune to critical hits.)
Animated objects count as characters for AC purposes.
Attacking a held, carried, or worn object provokes an attack of opportunity. Objects that are held, carried, or worn by a character, are harder to hit. The object uses the character's Dexterity modifier (not its own –5) and any magic deflection bonus to AC the character may have. The attacker doesn't get any special bonus for attacking the object. If the target object is in the opponent's hand, it gets a +5 AC bonus because the opponent can move it quickly out of harm's way.
Table: Size and AC of Objects
Size AC Modifier
----- -----------
Colossal -8
Gigantic -4
Huge -2
Large -1
Medium-size +0
Small +1
Tiny +2
Diminutive +4
Fine +8

There you have it - all the rules in one place (except the DMG variant kreynolds referred to).

The bottom line?:

You can only Sunder a weapon or shield.

Attacking an item in use provokes an AoO, but not if the item is not in use. Any item can be attacked, but only weapons can be sundered.

With the exception of certain creatures with special rules (Beholder, Hydra, et. al.), and without variant rules, you can't disable or destroy a monster natural weapons.

 

[phillipjp]

Hrmph. It seems an oversight that WotC wouldn't account for damaging natural weapons.

A warrior can have his shield sundered and his sword disarmed (hehe, can you tell I play a fighter?), but a 100hp monster can have 99hp hacked away, and yet still take a full attack action to attack with all 3 or 4 natural weapons.

I sense a house rule coming...

 

[kreynolds]

Hrmph. It seems an oversight that WotC wouldn't account for damaging natural weapons.

A warrior can have his shield sundered and his sword disarmed (hehe, can you tell I play a fighter?), but a 100hp monster can have 99hp hacked away, and yet still take a full attack action to attack with all 3 or 4 natural weapons.

I sense a house rule coming...

Sure, the house rule is called "Called Shot", which is a real piece of <bleep> rule from 2nd edition. That's why it's a variant now. Like I said, check out the variant rule I mentioned above. I found it. It's on page 66 of the DMG.

 

[Astlin]

Evn Grappling to pin a limb won't work under the rules. They can still attack with light weapons while grappled and all natural weapons are considered light.

When pinned in a grapple the victim is held immobile, but not helpless and it can still attack and do other things.

Unfortunately, the grapple rules do not allow a struggle over a specific weapon (as in the dagger fight in _Saving Private Ryan_).

If you are pinned the only option (137PH) is to make an opposed Grapple check...to ESCAPE the pin. That is it.

If you are being grappled (but not pinned) you may "attack and do other things" (137-8 PH).

When they say you are not 'Helpless' they are saying that you can't CDG him.

Oh! Back to topic. Yea, you can grapple that Giant Scorpian, and if you pin him, he can't attack you. Good luck.

Astlin

 

[kreynolds]

Oh! Back to topic. Yea, you can grapple that Giant Scorpian, and if you pin him, he can't attack you. Good luck.

LOL

 

[ruleslawyer]

Artoomis:

I'd say that the reference in the Sunder feat description to striking a weapon or shield, as opposed to striking an attended object, is in error. Yes, by the rules as written, you can use Sunder to attack a shortsword held in an opponent's hand without provoking an AoO but cannot use it to strike an identically-sized rod in the opponent's hand without provoking an AoO. Personally, I think this poses a glaring logical consistency and should be rule-0'd even if the errata or Sage Advice has not addressed it.

 

[chilibean]

Artoomis:

I'd say that the reference in the Sunder feat description to striking a weapon or shield, as opposed to striking an attended object, is in error. Yes, by the rules as written, you can use Sunder to attack a shortsword held in an opponent's hand without provoking an AoO but cannot use it to strike an identically-sized rod in the opponent's hand without provoking an AoO. Personally, I think this poses a glaring logical consistency and should be rule-0'd even if the errata or Sage Advice has not addressed it.

I agree.

Any reasonable interpretation would read "weapon or shield" as simply a synonym for "attended object", IMO.

 

[Artoomis]

Using Sunder to attack attaened objects (not just weapon or shield) is a very reasonable house rule. I'd not attempt to talk anyone out of it.

Of course, the actual rule is not that, nor can we really infer that was the intent, but I think it would be just fine.

 

[Voadam]

my error

Oops, my mistake, Astlin is correct. If you pin the scorpion it cannot attack you with its stinger.

Here is the srd quote

"When an opponent has pinned a combatant, the combatant is held immobile (but not helpless) for 1 round. The combatant can make an opposed grapple check as a melee attack. If the combatant wins, the combatant escapes the pin, but the combatant is still grappling. In addition to making opposed grapple checks, a combatant has a few other options while grappling.

Weapons: A combatant can attack with a light weapon while grappling (but not while pinned or pinning). "


I can see this working with creature natural weapon attacks (picturing a snake handler grabbing a rattler behind the head so it cannot lash out with its bite).

 

[Ristamar]

There is a feat in AEG's Dragons that allows you to "Sunder" natural weapons. Not surprisingly, it's called Sunder Natural Weapon.

As for the prospect Sunder being used on attended objects to avoid AoO, I'd like to interject a personal opinion, a flavor explanation of the existing mechanics, if you will.

I suppose I've always seen the Sunder feat as subtle, disguised, and/or intelligent attack placement that does not leave yourself open to blows from the defender.

If you strike at a weapon or shield with the Sunder feat, you're attempting to break (or break through) an opponents defenses. Essentially, it almost seems like you're attacking your foe, but all you're really trying to do is smash the hell out of his sword or shield. On top of that, he can't start waving his sword and shield all about to avoid the blows, because that would leave him wide open for an attack.

On the other hand, if you start swinging at that nifty potion in his hand, it becomes obvious that you're focused on the item, not your foe, leaving you open to attacks of opportunity.

Anyhow, I could understand a reasonable house rule allowing Sunder to avoid AoO's while attacking attended objects. The fluff above is merely my personal justification as to why I do not have such a house rule.