Level Up (A5E) Sunset Riders Fantasy Western! (Campaign Setting thoughts)

[Steampunkette]

i saw this during my break at work today, and i was...kind of baffled at it. i'm glad i did see it at work, because i managed to organize my thoughts enough to be able to explain why this baffled me so much - and it's this:

so, the american settlers in this setting have integrated with the natives instead of conquering them...and then we have another group conquering the natives ala the american indian wars and setting up railways ala the transcontinental railway. uhm...what? who're the american settlers here again?

in other words, this conceit (in combination with the first) feels confused to me. i think it muddies who's who too much. i wouldn't say the base idea with it is necessarily bad? just that the way it's written here sounds like it could end up being kind of a mess if you're not careful.

i like the rest of it a lot, though. the idea of essentially a mythic america is pretty rad, and that campaign hook is pretty metal.

Okayso...

The point is that there's two waves of immigration. One which joins the local culture and becomes a part of a greater society by learning to live with their neighbors, and a contrasting group of immigrants who seek conquest. The contrasting group -is- an imperialistic and capitalistic force, meant to play into the "American Danger" of losing one's soul piece by piece as they occupy other settled lands.

The difference between ordinary settlers and conquerors shown in relief against each other. And the response of the natives and the settlers to the imperialistic force.

Everyone is meant to be "American Settlers"... but a direct contrast in method. Because, historically, you had both. And one set were good people and one (much larger) set were bad people.

I kinda agree that the evil empire seems to muddies the water too much. I wonder if it would be easier to have the "evil empire" simply be capitalistic Robber Barons. That would also work with the expanding railways. However, the smooth integration of the European settlers with the American Indians also feels like it's also potentially white-washing away a lot of issues.

I am also curious how African American analogues are part of this setting because they were also unmentioned. Are they enslaved by the Evil Empire? (Hopefully not.) Did they "voluntarily" settle alongside the European and American Indian analogues? (Again, potentially white-washing it all.) This is also not to mention the various East Asian migrants who settled America's west coast.

I have been concerned about historical white washing, yeah. Though this is meant, explicitly, to be an allegorical fantasy rather than a historical retelling. And no, black people aren't specifically or historically slaves in the setting, they're just part of the population same as in most campaign settings.

"What could have been" rather than "What was"

And yeah. The Kilnlands in the west on the far side of the Stonefather Mountains are where the East Asian allegories settled. Beyond the Great Basin. (California comes from Kiln, etymologically)

One of the big reasons I've been itchy about making this into a published work is the issue of history. Of white washing, of white saviors, of generally handling it poorly 'cause no matter how you frame it, an allegorical America is still going to -be- America.

I also wonder if splitting the settlers into two factions, the conquering naughty words, and the ones who want to integrate with the natives peacefully, would be a better idea than having one and two be separate countries.

That's kind of what it is, yeah.

You've got the dozens of nations of native peoples that settlers have integrated into peacefully, and the Evil Empire. Whether it's actually a straight up Empire with an Emperor or instead a capitalist conglomerate Cyberpunk style is still up in the air. Maybe I shouldn't have used the term "Empire"? But the core conceit is 'Right way and Wrong way'. (And Historically, America and other colonizers did it the wrong way)

Cultural Imperialism, after all, doesn't require an Emperor. Just to override other cultures with one's own. (Media Empires, for example)

I agree it does muddy the waters, and while the concept of no colonisation (but still some colonisation) may have noble intent it does both ignore a huge hunk of history and become a point of obfuscation of that history.

in my opinion you’d be better off acknowledging that French/Spanish/British/Dutch/Swedish/Russian colonies existed alongside Indigenous nations like the Haudenosaunee, the Five Tribes of Sequoyah, Northwestern Confederacy. Use the flexible timeline and go to alt History ( Battle of Fallen Timbers is won by the Northwest Confederacy, Sequoyah is recognised as an independent state) and make the indigenous nations interesting - I’d go as far as making Sequoyah State the source of the settings steampunk industries, giving a possibly indigenous counter to the Evil Railroad Empire.

anyway great idea, I was a fan of Northern Crown when it was released and the Alvin Maker stories before that so. Theres definitely potential. You could also explore things like the Gullah culture in Carolina and the Chinese kongsi in California. Chinese are also closely associated with the Railroad expansion - which ties to your Railroad Empire

That might be a bit -too- close to making it a Historical Fiction rather than a Fantasy Allegory.

D&D First, Western Second, America Third.

Consider: Firefly.

It's a Sci-Fi setting that has a very western style and is connected to history only tangentially. The idea that China and the US formed "The Alliance" is really the only thing that anchors it to Earth in the present, much less the past.

For this setting, snip that connection. It's not Earth, it's Faerun as a Western.

 

[Steampunkette]

There’s a bunch of mythical American monsters in Mythological Figures & Maleficent Monsters.

It's a thing I've been looking at, for sure!

Though y'all made the Jersey Devil into a huge dragon instead of a kangaroo sized weirdo, which made me sad.

He's supposed to be between 3 feet tall and 7 feet tall, depending on the specific story.

 

[DarkRainbowFiend]

It's a thing I've been looking at, for sure!

Though y'all made the Jersey Devil into a huge dragon instead of a kangaroo sized weirdo, which made me sad.

He's supposed to be between 3 feet tall and 7 feet tall, depending on the specific story.

I also question why you didn't make the Jersey Devil a fiend instead of a dragon. Hell in some versions of the Jersey Devil legends his father is the devil himself too.

 

[DarkRainbowFiend]

Okayso...

The point is that there's two waves of immigration. One which joins the local culture and becomes a part of a greater society by learning to live with their neighbors, and a contrasting group of immigrants who seek conquest. The contrasting group -is- an imperialistic and capitalistic force, meant to play into the "American Danger" of losing one's soul piece by piece as they occupy other settled lands.

The difference between ordinary settlers and conquerors shown in relief against each other. And the response of the natives and the settlers to the imperialistic force.

Everyone is meant to be "American Settlers"... but a direct contrast in method. Because, historically, you had both. And one set were good people and one (much larger) set were bad people.

I have been concerned about historical white washing, yeah. Though this is meant, explicitly, to be an allegorical fantasy rather than a historical retelling. And no, black people aren't specifically or historically slaves in the setting, they're just part of the population same as in most campaign settings.

"What could have been" rather than "What was"

And yeah. The Kilnlands in the west on the far side of the Stonefather Mountains are where the East Asian allegories settled. Beyond the Great Basin. (California comes from Kiln, etymologically)

One of the big reasons I've been itchy about making this into a published work is the issue of history. Of white washing, of white saviors, of generally handling it poorly 'cause no matter how you frame it, an allegorical America is still going to -be- America.

That's kind of what it is, yeah.

You've got the dozens of nations of native peoples that settlers have integrated into peacefully, and the Evil Empire. Whether it's actually a straight up Empire with an Emperor or instead a capitalist conglomerate Cyberpunk style is still up in the air. Maybe I shouldn't have used the term "Empire"? But the core conceit is 'Right way and Wrong way'. (And Historically, America and other colonizers did it the wrong way)

Cultural Imperialism, after all, doesn't require an Emperor. Just to override other cultures with one's own. (Media Empires, for example)

That might be a bit -too- close to making it a Historical Fiction rather than a Fantasy Allegory.

D&D First, Western Second, America Third.

Consider: Firefly.

It's a Sci-Fi setting that has a very western style and is connected to history only tangentially. The idea that China and the US formed "The Alliance" is really the only thing that anchors it to Earth in the present, much less the past.

For this setting, snip that connection. It's not Earth, it's Faerun as a Western.

one kinda add-on is there would be a third faction who kinda is the middle ground of the friendly colonial integrators and the evil conquering colonists. They aren't exactly murdering and enslaving natives by the dozen, but aren't peacefully coexisting with the natives and singing coom-ba-ya as the sunset goes down. That ya we get more of a spectrum of morality as to how to approach with the whole colonizing business with solid examples of The Good, The Bad, and The Ugly. One thing to point out, in the context of the American frontier era, is that a civil war is somewhat important (the end of the civil war often marking the beginning of the wild west period). So, while I know this is more fantasy allegory than historical fiction, there is an idea here of making the friendly integrators (or at least some of them) originally from the conquering colonists but had a change of heart or just otherwise disliked the latter faction so the former faction rebelled in a civil war, leading to the setting's modern day.

 

[Blue Orange]

It's very clever and creative.

I had no clue how anyone was going to bring back the Western, but this may be an approach.

Well done!

 

[Steampunkette]

one kinda add-on is there would be a third faction who kinda is the middle ground of the friendly colonial integrators and the evil conquering colonists. They aren't exactly murdering and enslaving natives by the dozen, but aren't peacefully coexisting with the natives and singing coom-ba-ya as the sunset goes down. That ya we get more of a spectrum of morality as to how to approach with the whole colonizing business with solid examples of The Good, The Bad, and The Ugly. One thing to point out, in the context of the American frontier era, is that a civil war is somewhat important (the end of the civil war often marking the beginning of the wild west period). So, while I know this is more fantasy allegory than historical fiction, there is an idea here of making the friendly integrators (or at least some of them) originally from the conquering colonists but had a change of heart or just otherwise disliked the latter faction so the former faction rebelled in a civil war, leading to the setting's modern day.

That is an interesting thought... Use settlers to map out the alignments..?

My original thoughts toward the settlements were going to be regional. In the East where there's cities and large settlements comparable to Cahokia and long-term living structure (And out in the west with Pueblo Cliff Dwellings) you'd get people just settling right into the Acadian town and building their quasi-euro house and stuff right there.

But then settlement in the prairie... well. People tend to follow the herds in cycles across the grasslands and the culture, there, developed around those cycles of migration. Settlers in -that- region might build entire farming communities that become trade-hubs when the herds come back to that part of the prairie. Permanent settlements in an impermanent environment, essentially.

So there's definitely room for different degrees and styles of integration, and room for isolationist cultures, too. Where they move into an area, ignore the cultures and traditions of the natives, and just have a fairly standard European Town sticking out like a sore thumb.

 

[Steampunkette]

To give an idea of how huge and varied the map would have to be to compare to reality...

 

[Blue Orange]

To give an idea of how huge and varied the map would have to be to compare to reality...

Great point. No way you're doing that without a team of people working for you.

I mean, it's a continent, and there's no Qin Shi Huang.

 

[payn]

D&D First, Western Second, America Third.

My two cents is you should make America a very distant third. I think taking the ideas of a western but supplanting them in a totally not America is a better idea. Folks wont spend any time comparing them directly to American history.

Consider: Firefly.

It's a Sci-Fi setting that has a very western style and is connected to history only tangentially. The idea that China and the US formed "The Alliance" is really the only thing that anchors it to Earth in the present, much less the past.

For this setting, snip that connection. It's not Earth, it's Faerun as a Western.

Yeah, consider Firefly. There was a Lost Cause element to the series I found questionable then, and very distasteful now. It is tangential, and at the time I could squint and not be bothered by it, but that didn't last.

 

[DarkRainbowFiend]

That is an interesting thought... Use settlers to map out the alignments..?

My original thoughts toward the settlements were going to be regional. In the East where there's cities and large settlements comparable to Cahokia and long-term living structure (And out in the west with Pueblo Cliff Dwellings) you'd get people just settling right into the Acadian town and building their quasi-euro house and stuff right there.

But then settlement in the prairie... well. People tend to follow the herds in cycles across the grasslands and the culture, there, developed around those cycles of migration. Settlers in -that- region might build entire farming communities that become trade-hubs when the herds come back to that part of the prairie. Permanent settlements in an impermanent environment, essentially.

So there's definitely room for different degrees and styles of integration, and room for isolationist cultures, too. Where they move into an area, ignore the cultures and traditions of the natives, and just have a fairly standard European Town sticking out like a sore thumb.

one, i'm suprised you didn't point out my pun on my post, and two, Use settlers to map out the alignments as they map out the land seem fitting.