Level Up (A5E) Sunset Riders Fantasy Western! (Campaign Setting thoughts)

[Steampunkette]

My two cents is you should make America a very distant third. I think taking the ideas of a western but supplanting them in a totally not America is a better idea. Folks wont spend any time comparing them directly to American history.

Yeah, consider Firefly. There was a Lost Cause element to the series I found questionable then, and very distasteful now. It is tangential, and at the time I could squint and not be bothered by it, but that didn't last.

Yeah, I have no intent of putting a Civil War into the setting. I've dodged that comment once but I should put it out there.

The "Lost Cause" was a myth created by those who came after the Civil War and didn't want their traitorous bloodlines to reflect poorly on them. Particularly the Sons and Daughters of the Confederacy. The whole "States Rights" thing and other garbage I was taught in middle school in Georgia was revisionist propaganda.

And with the political climate being what it is in the US, that's as far as I'd care to discuss the matter on this website.

There are two reasons I'd like to use a map -reminiscent- of America for this setting.

1) 90% of D&D style campaign settings are Western Europe with the Unapproachable East equivalents. The Remembered Realms is just the Sword Coast and Silver Marches, the most Western Europe part of the map, with things going further East and South barely mentioned anymore and mostly tied to non-European cultures. I'd rather go East to West and have non-Euro cultures be the core of the game.

2) It's just -cool-. North America as a continent is massive beyond words. The variety of vistas and plantlife, biomes and ecological niches, not to mention cultural variety? It's dazzling and should be put out there into a game for it's own sake.

Though I will almost certainly be shrinking the map significantly, and -definitely- changing the layout a lot. While I wanna keep certain elements (Appalachia, Rocky Mountains, The Mississippi, Great Plains, Northwestern Rainforest, Southern Deserts, Northern Taiga and Tundra) I definitely wanna reshape it some.

one, i'm suprised you didn't point out my pun on my post, and two, Use settlers to map out the alignments as they map out the land seem fitting.

... I missed the pun.

Point it out for me? I'm so sorry!

 

[MGibster]

My two cents is you should make America a very distant third. I think taking the ideas of a western but supplanting them in a totally not America is a better idea. Folks wont spend any time comparing them directly to American history.

That's my opinion as well. Just use the trappings and the themes of a western and I think it'd work fine.

 

[DarkRainbowFiend]

Yeah, I have no intent of putting a Civil War into the setting. I've dodged that comment once but I should put it out there.

The "Lost Cause" was a myth created by those who came after the Civil War and didn't want their traitorous bloodlines to reflect poorly on them. Particularly the Sons and Daughters of the Confederacy. The whole "States Rights" thing and other garbage I was taught in middle school in Georgia was revisionist propaganda.

And with the political climate being what it is in the US, that's as far as I'd care to discuss the matter on this website.

There are two reasons I'd like to use a map -reminiscent- of America for this setting.

1) 90% of D&D style campaign settings are Western Europe with the Unapproachable East equivalents. The Remembered Realms is just the Sword Coast and Silver Marches, the most Western Europe part of the map, with things going further East and South barely mentioned anymore and mostly tied to non-European cultures. I'd rather go East to West and have non-Euro cultures be the core of the game.

2) It's just -cool-. North America as a continent is massive beyond words. The variety of vistas and plantlife, biomes and ecological niches, not to mention cultural variety? It's dazzling and should be put out there into a game for it's own sake.

Though I will almost certainly be shrinking the map significantly, and -definitely- changing the layout a lot. While I wanna keep certain elements (Appalachia, Rocky Mountains, The Mississippi, Great Plains, Northwestern Rainforest, Southern Deserts, Northern Taiga and Tundra) I definitely wanna reshape it some.


... I missed the pun.

Point it out for me? I'm so sorry!

I put the pun in bold text, the post where i suggested a sort of third faction on page two.

 

[Micah Sweet]

So... rattling around in my brain for the past year and a little more is the idea of doing a fantasy western setting.

There's -tons- of Pseudo-Medieval Europe settings, a fair few Steampunk Europe settings, and a couple "Outlier" concept settings like Eberron which really don't feel like they belong to any one time period or region of the world. Dark Sun is another really good example of that. Meanwhile Ravenloft is Spooky Europe... And most of the settings for southeast Asia are... problematic... to say the least.

But there's also some strong Weird West contenders like the inestimable Deadlands or the Fistful of Darkness setting. There's also the EXCELLENT Sci-Fantasy setting Coyote and Crow which involves an America that was never colonized.

But when I say "Fantasy Western" I mean more "D&D with Cowboys". Gonzo monsters, kings and fiefdoms, stagecoach robberies, dragons... The whole nine yards. In point of fact it's why I've got the Gunslinger in Martial Artistry.

And a part of why I wanna do it is: I have English players, now, in my games, and I'm mortified of my terrible 'faux-British' accents that I know are hilariously inaccurate compared to my Midwestern accent or my Brooklyn accent or my variety of southern accents... Watching Brennan Lee Mulligan have Midwest halfling anarcho-socialists was pretty huge, if I'm honest. And Plug with his Butt Ugly Stuff Hut was also influential.

So lemme touch on a few of the core conceits and see what y'all think:

1) No Colonization (Almost)
This is a fantasy setting where the allegorical European settlers didn't found colonies. Instead they joined the cultures and communities of people who already lived in Acadia. They brought their own cultural elements, of course. Food, clothing styles, customs, religions. But rather than try to conquer the Acadian natives they did their best to settle alongside them in symbiosis where possible, and outright joined their societies where it made more sense to do so. However...

2) Evil Empire
Gotta have a pretty universally recognized "Bad Guy" in most settings. And since this is a setting about a fantasy version of America where the settlers weren't evil conquering jerks, having some solid evil and conquering jerks helps to show they're not imperialists. An expansionist imperial interest has landed on the continent of Acadia and begun conquering settlements and nation-states. They're slavers and they're building rail lines to connect their empire and expand its reach. Hard to avoid using a railroad to get where you wanna go without giving them money.

3) Fantastic Environments
Redwood forests are incredible and rarely seen in your typical D&D setting. But there's also the Great Basin. Historically there was an Inland Sea that stretched from Canada down through Wyoming and Nevada. It dried up millions of years ago, of course, but in this setting it dried up a few years ago. So now there's this strange and wondrous "Bottom of the Ocean" vibe in the deserts of the southwest. Coral highlands and shallow salt-rich lakes. Populated largely by aberrations that used to live at the bottom of the sea now living largely in caves. Things like Gricks and Carrion Crawlers. How about Appalachia as it's described by the people who live there? How about New England as Lovecraft writes it, and Maine as King writes it?

4) American Monsters
In addition to the traditional ogres and faeries of forgotten realms, some good old fashioned American mythical monsters. Hoop snakes and Hodags. Skunk Apes and Snallygasters. Even the dreaded Dungavenhooter and the adorably dangerous Jackalope. Might even go on a -real- Snipe hunt! From the Jersey Devil to the Chupacabra, America's got some wild monsters in it's myths and legends. Might even come across a herd of Blue Oxen... or some Ghost Riders in the Sky.... But also let Don Quixote tilt windmills -and- giants in equal measure!

5) American Dangers
While the idea of making a deal with the devil appears to have started in Europe sometime around 1000 CE, no other culture has ever done it as thoroughly as America has. Whether it's Crossroads Deals or Politicians selling their soul for a shot at office it's a common theme. And tied to it? The idea of dying a little inside every day. Of giving up pieces of your soul over time to accomplish things that seem necessary, even if they're evil... So how about a setting where it's not only easy to lose parts of your soul... but where you don't -die- when it's gone? Where you might even be able to get it back by outwitting a devil, or fighting to take it back from other monsters... Or even do a train robbery on the Ghost Train to reclaim your own soul before its ticket is punched...

6) Magical Metal and Spellcraft
Every single suit of armor, every sword, every gun and bullet, is imbued with -just- enough magic to keep the game fair. Guns are fun and interesting weapons, but they're not significantly stronger, or more expensive, than a longsword. They are, however, ridiculously easy to use compared to a longbow. Coincidentally, Warcasters are their own thing in the setting with magical force-shields to protect against cannonfire and return volleys of firebolts.

7) Nebulous Time Period
Pretty much every Weird West game is set right after the Civil War, essentially, so far as cultures and technology. And every fantasy game is nebulously trapped between the 8th and 15th centuries. But for this setting? Knights in shining armor, cowboys, railcars, golden age pirates, and six-gun samurai. Everything all at once because wild! Why bind yourself to a specific time period in a fantasy setting meant to make an imaginary America feel like D&D? Okay, so I'll probably make some of it more or less Regional. But you have to admit a knight wearing black armor with a great coat and a tin star hunting down criminals to bring them to justice would be amazing in it's own way. Blend the tropes!

8) Heritage Variety
Every heritage in every culture. Native Acadians aren't all Elves or something weird like that. They're the same sort of blend of heritages as any other culture in the setting. Elves, dwarves, gnomes, halflings, etc. PROBABLY try to keep the player heritage variety a touch limited in the world-book, but let players import whatever heritages they want to their tables. Nothing wrong with havinge Podes off the coast or Zevite invaders. Honestly, looking over the heritage list in A5e.tools I'm positively shocked there's no "Undead Heritage" yet... so I might add that to the setting. After all: Spooky Western is a whole genre as we've established.

What do you think? Is this a thing I should work toward publishing or just keep it for my own table?

What's the in-universe reason for people to use firearms, if they provide no advantage over other ranged weapons? How would they even have been invented and popularized? Making a musket is a more expensive and complex process, generally speaking, than making a bow.

I run into this problem in games all the time. Folks want PCs to be able to choose whatever weapons they want, and in the process make it hard to justify using the weapons of the period because there's no benefit to it, which leads to them not being as ubiquitous as the setting would suggest, which means the setting loses flavor.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Yeah, I have no intent of putting a Civil War into the setting. I've dodged that comment once but I should put it out there.

The "Lost Cause" was a myth created by those who came after the Civil War and didn't want their traitorous bloodlines to reflect poorly on them. Particularly the Sons and Daughters of the Confederacy. The whole "States Rights" thing and other garbage I was taught in middle school in Georgia was revisionist propaganda.

And with the political climate being what it is in the US, that's as far as I'd care to discuss the matter on this website.

There are two reasons I'd like to use a map -reminiscent- of America for this setting.

1) 90% of D&D style campaign settings are Western Europe with the Unapproachable East equivalents. The Remembered Realms is just the Sword Coast and Silver Marches, the most Western Europe part of the map, with things going further East and South barely mentioned anymore and mostly tied to non-European cultures. I'd rather go East to West and have non-Euro cultures be the core of the game.

2) It's just -cool-. North America as a continent is massive beyond words. The variety of vistas and plantlife, biomes and ecological niches, not to mention cultural variety? It's dazzling and should be put out there into a game for it's own sake.

Though I will almost certainly be shrinking the map significantly, and -definitely- changing the layout a lot. While I wanna keep certain elements (Appalachia, Rocky Mountains, The Mississippi, Great Plains, Northwestern Rainforest, Southern Deserts, Northern Taiga and Tundra) I definitely wanna reshape it some.


... I missed the pun.

Point it out for me? I'm so sorry!

That all sounds really interesting as a fantasy setting with a North American flavor instead of a European one. It just doesn't sound like a Western to me, because it skips huge amounts of context because it's unpleasant.

 

[Steampunkette]

I put the pun in bold text, the post where i suggested a sort of third faction on page two.

Oh. I thought it was just a reference to the movie rather than a pun. My mistake!

What's the in-universe reason for people to use firearms, if they provide no advantage over other ranged weapons? How would they even have been invented and popularized? Making a musket is a more expensive and complex process, generally speaking, than making a bow.

I run into this problem in games all the time. Folks want PCs to be able to choose whatever weapons they want, and in the process make it hard to justify using the weapons of the period because there's no benefit to it, which leads to them not being as ubiquitous as the setting would suggest, which means the setting loses flavor.

Ease of use, firstly. The Crossbow was -banned- by the Pope because any peasant could use it to kill a mounted soldier with minimal training. Guns are similar to crossbows but -smaller-, more portable, easier to conceal, and the ammunition also takes up less space. 20 bullets are lighter than 20 crossbow bolts, after all. They'll also be somewhat better than crossbows for damage values.

A Revolver will be 1d8 and one-handed, making it 'Better' than a light crossbow since your off-hand is empty or holding a second revolver. Meanwhile a shotgun or a carbine/repeating rifle will be a d10 and a single-shot-rifle will be 2d6 like a greatsword at range. The idea isn't to make them pointless to have, but to have them be more in-line with the dice of the game when it comes to damage output than some systems and settings have.

Unlike 3e's 2d8 one handed revolver with a x4 critical multiplier. Or Pathfinder's touch AC firearms that did reasonable enough damage but still had huge crits.

That all sounds really interesting as a fantasy setting with a North American flavor instead of a European one. It just doesn't sound like a Western to me, because it skips huge amounts of context because it's unpleasant.

I think that ultimately depends on where a person feels "America" ends and "Western" begins, in the end.

Consider The Magnificent Seven, a western style remake of The Seven Samurai. The core plot is the same, the trappings are different, and there's nothing in it about colonization or slavery at all. It's long been considered one of the defining westerns in cinema history. It's very western and has a goodly chunk of Americana in it without "The Context" you're referring to. Because those things aren't needed to tell a western story. Or, in this case, a western retelling of a Japanese story.

For a -VASTLY- worse example, you can look at Rebel Moon part 1. Which tries to tell a Star Wars version of the Seven Samurai and falls on its face. Does that mean you can't do a good Seven Samurai in space? No. Just that Snyder did a bad job of it.

Are there stories it would be hard or even impossible to tell in the setting? ABSOLUTELY. The bias in Blazing Saddles from the townsfolk, for example. Because it was a reflection of political ideologies as they existed both in the American West -and- when the film was created. A satirical jab at racism that wouldn't work in a setting where racism isn't a core element.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Oh. I thought it was just a reference to the movie rather than a pun. My mistake!

Ease of use, firstly. The Crossbow was -banned- by the Pope because any peasant could use it to kill a mounted soldier with minimal training. Guns are similar to crossbows but -smaller-, more portable, easier to conceal, and the ammunition also takes up less space. 20 bullets are lighter than 20 crossbow bolts, after all. They'll also be somewhat better than crossbows for damage values.

A Revolver will be 1d8 and one-handed, making it 'Better' than a light crossbow since your off-hand is empty or holding a second revolver. Meanwhile a shotgun or a carbine/repeating rifle will be a d10 and a single-shot-rifle will be 2d6 like a greatsword at range. The idea isn't to make them pointless to have, but to have them be more in-line with the dice of the game when it comes to damage output than some systems and settings have.

Unlike 3e's 2d8 one handed revolver with a x4 critical multiplier. Or Pathfinder's touch AC firearms that did reasonable enough damage but still had huge crits.

I think that ultimately depends on where a person feels "America" ends and "Western" begins, in the end.

Consider The Magnificent Seven, a western style remake of The Seven Samurai. The core plot is the same, the trappings are different, and there's nothing in it about colonization or slavery at all. It's long been considered one of the defining westerns in cinema history. It's very western and has a goodly chunk of Americana in it without "The Context" you're referring to. Because those things aren't needed to tell a western story. Or, in this case, a western retelling of a Japanese story.

For a -VASTLY- worse example, you can look at Rebel Moon part 1. Which tries to tell a Star Wars version of the Seven Samurai and falls on its face. Does that mean you can't do a good Seven Samurai in space? No. Just that Snyder did a bad job of it.

Are there stories it would be hard or even impossible to tell in the setting? ABSOLUTELY. The bias in Blazing Saddles from the townsfolk, for example. Because it was a reflection of political ideologies as they existed both in the American West -and- when the film was created. A satirical jab at racism that wouldn't work in a setting where racism isn't a core element.

The Magificent Seven is an adventure. Adventures don't necessarily need a larger context to work. Settings are a different beast. I feel creating a world featuring genre conventions requires a context that a specific adventure might not.

 

[Morrus]

Yeah, I have no intent of putting a Civil War into the setting. I've dodged that comment once but I should put it out there.

The "Lost Cause" was a myth created by those who came after the Civil War and didn't want their traitorous bloodlines to reflect poorly on them. Particularly the Sons and Daughters of the Confederacy. The whole "States Rights" thing and other garbage I was taught in middle school in Georgia was revisionist propaganda.

And with the political climate being what it is in the US, that's as far as I'd care to discuss the matter on this website.

I'll also add that this site is not the place for this type of real world politics. Let's all please steer clear. Thanks!

 

[Steampunkette]

The Magificent Seven is an adventure. Adventures don't necessarily need a larger context to work. Settings are a different beast. I feel creating a world featuring genre conventions requires a context that a specific adventure might not.

I definitely agree they're different beasts.

I still disagree that that specific context is needed. A history is certainly required and I'll work on a timeline at some point... but I don't believe it needs those elements for it to feel like a Western.

 

[Faolyn]

1) No Colonization (Almost)
This is a fantasy setting where the allegorical European settlers didn't found colonies. Instead they joined the cultures and communities of people who already lived in Acadia. They brought their own cultural elements, of course. Food, clothing styles, customs, religions. But rather than try to conquer the Acadian natives they did their best to settle alongside them in symbiosis where possible, and outright joined their societies where it made more sense to do so. However...

2) Evil Empire
Gotta have a pretty universally recognized "Bad Guy" in most settings. And since this is a setting about a fantasy version of America where the settlers weren't evil conquering jerks, having some solid evil and conquering jerks helps to show they're not imperialists. An expansionist imperial interest has landed on the continent of Acadia and begun conquering settlements and nation-states. They're slavers and they're building rail lines to connect their empire and expand its reach. Hard to avoid using a railroad to get where you wanna go without giving them money.

I think you could avoid colonization while still having Bad Guys by having the imperialists be also native to the continent and who have recently developed a desire/need for expansionism. Maybe they recently found or developed substance they want to mine or grow but it's easier, cheaper, or safer for them to get other people to do it and have become slavers. Maybe there was a war, they enslaved the POWs, and have kept on using slaves because it was easy. Or they could be completely inhuman--maybe they're all shapechanging dragons who have decided that building railways and therefore travelers brings in the gold well, and they use their humanoid servitor/slaves/indentured servants behind the scenes to create their own little paradise for said travelers. They could create a very early version of Vegas.

Plus, well, no matter how well integrated a community is, you're still going to have "Our Land for Ourlandonians!" people and "The Ourlandonians are erasing our Newcomer Identities!" people.

6) Magical Metal and Spellcraft
Every single suit of armor, every sword, every gun and bullet, is imbued with -just- enough magic to keep the game fair. Guns are fun and interesting weapons, but they're not significantly stronger, or more expensive, than a longsword. They are, however, ridiculously easy to use compared to a longbow. Coincidentally, Warcasters are their own thing in the setting with magical force-shields to protect against cannonfire and return volleys of firebolts.

In the real world, sure, guns are probably easier than bows to use, but in a game setting it's still just the same old proficiency bonus.