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5E Super Monk Jumps

Tormyr

Adventurer
Thanks for the replies everybody.

Doesn't look like there's a clear consensus or rule for this.

My initial feeling was frustration at what I thought seemed OP. But some of the replies here have changed my mind to allow it at X6.

Super Monk Jumping would be super cinematic.

[MENTION=277]jasper[/MENTION] makes a good point about both the ring and step of the wind requiring a bonus action. However the jump spell lasts a minute, so the effects could be combined on the next turn.
 

jgsugden

Explorer
D&D is an RPG. A role playing game. Characters play a role in a story. Your job, as DM, is to make it a good story.

Whenever there is rule ambiguity that can have multiple interpretations, and neither interpretation 'breaks the game', make the choice that makes for the best stories.

A monk that combines Ki and magic to leap like a meth riddled flea? AWESOME. Does it break the game? Considering it is inherently weaker than flying, which you can get with one uncommon magic item pretty easily, the answer is no.

I would absolutely go for the greater more permissive interpretation.
 

Wulffolk

Villager
Thanks for the replies everybody.

Doesn't look like there's a clear consensus or rule for this.

My initial feeling was frustration at what I thought seemed OP. But some of the replies here have changed my mind to allow it at X6.

Super Monk Jumping would be super cinematic.
Seems like the following quote was exactly what you were looking for.

jasper said:
Ring of jumping is a bonus action
Step of the wind is 1 ki pt disengage or dash action AS a BONUS action. SO one or the other.
Jump distance long jump srd page 85. Is str score. So Str x 2 for wind. Jump spell/ring Str * 3
So, one or the other bonus action. Sort of what I was getting at in my earlier post, but jasper made the point better.
 
Seems like the following quote was exactly what you were looking for.
My interpretation of Step of the Wind only requires the bonus action for the Disengage or Dash. The jump portion of the ki feature is not a bonus action.

See the text:

"You can spend 1 ki point to take the Disengage or Dash action as a Bonus Action on Your Turn, and your jump distance is doubled for the turn."
 

ad_hoc

Explorer
My interpretation of Step of the Wind only requires the bonus action for the Disengage or Dash. The jump portion of the ki feature is not a bonus action.

See the text:

"You can spend 1 ki point to take the Disengage or Dash action as a Bonus Action on Your Turn, and your jump distance is doubled for the turn."
You need to spend the 1 ki and use a bonus action to get the added jump distance.

The bonus action Jump spell does last for 1 minute so on 1 turn you can cast the spell and then on later turns you can use your Monk ability to spend ki and a bonus action to jump further (and dash of course).
 

Ovinomancer

Explorer
My interpretation of Step of the Wind only requires the bonus action for the Disengage or Dash. The jump portion of the ki feature is not a bonus action.

See the text:

"You can spend 1 ki point to take the Disengage or Dash action as a Bonus Action on Your Turn, and your jump distance is doubled for the turn."
Right, I spend 1 ki point. I now have the option to use my bonus action to Dash or Disengage. Further, my jump distance is doubled for the turn.

I'm in the additive, not multiplicative, camp. No reason other than it limits really powerful abuse if something else comes out that could stack.
 

Wulffolk

Villager
Using the greatest modifier without stacking seems to be more in line with the spirit of 5e and Bounded Accuracy. Part of what they were actively trying to avoid with this edition was the escalation of stacking modifiers, hence the use of Concentration to limit spell stacking.

There is no right or wrong answer when it comes to private games. There is only right for us, and wrong for us. As others have said, choose the feel that you want your game to have and make your decision based on that. I usually choose to minimize bonuses in order to keep things less crazy.
 

5ekyu

Explorer
From the PHB "The effects of different spells add together while the durations of those spells overlap."

So if you want a strictly RAW and there is no Sage info on this i would not go with 6x which is multiplying them AND also basically counting your base speed twice.

i would actually go with 40'... +10' from the doubling and +20' from the tripling to the base speed.

But really, the limit will still be your speed (dashed if needed) as jump is really just a transform of type of movement, not actually a "speed" on its own.
 

UngeheuerLich

Adventurer
Why not 60ft? Does it in amy way break the game? I don't think so and I rather think it is quite cool. So I would go with x6. If yoj gave the character winged boots instead he would be more mobile. Note that jumbping does not directly prevent opportunity attacks or anything. You should however know the advantages and disadvantages of jumping 30ft high during that jump.
 

Tormyr

Adventurer
From the PHB "The effects of different spells add together while the durations of those spells overlap."

So if you want a strictly RAW and there is no Sage info on this *snip*
As [MENTION=277]jasper[/MENTION] pointed out earlier, Xanathar's clarifies that the proper name of the effect is what is important for determining what stacks rather than the effect itself. So multiple jump spells do not stack, but jump should stack with Step of the Wind.

Step of the Wind merely allows the monk to jump as well as a strength fighter at the cost of a ki point.
 

5ekyu

Explorer
As [MENTION=277]jasper[/MENTION] pointed out earlier, Xanathar's clarifies that the proper name of the effect is what is important for determining what stacks rather than the effect itself. So multiple jump spells do not stack, but jump should stack with Step of the Wind.

Step of the Wind merely allows the monk to jump as well as a strength fighter at the cost of a ki point.
Exactly... Thats why you need to read after your snip. I went on to show the effects ADD TOGETHER vs say MULTIPLY EACH OTHER.

A jump spell doubles your jump distance which in a 10' jump starting point ends up a 10' gain. The effect is to add 10. The ki triples... Increse 20.

ADD TOGETHER 10 gain and 20 gain and get 30 gain.

The MULTIPLY TOGETHER ignores the ADD and the 20+30=50 counts the base 10 twice.

Maybe i should have bolded the ADD TOGETHER?

Sent from my VS995 using EN World mobile app
 

Tormyr

Adventurer
Exactly... Thats why you need to read after your snip. I went on to show the effects ADD TOGETHER vs say MULTIPLY EACH OTHER.

A jump spell doubles your jump distance which in a 10' jump starting point ends up a 10' gain. The effect is to add 10. The ki triples... Increse 20.

ADD TOGETHER 10 gain and 20 gain and get 30 gain.

The MULTIPLY TOGETHER ignores the ADD and the 20+30=50 counts the base 10 twice.

Maybe i should have bolded the ADD TOGETHER?

Sent from my VS995 using EN World mobile app
Except that is not what either Step of the Wind or the jump spell says to do. Neither says your original jump distance is doubled, and no 5e mechanic that I am aware of separates out the original value for adding cumulative bonuses together in this way. It seems to be a mechanic from other games.

Step of the Wind says "...and your jump distance is doubled for the turn." A STR 10 monk who uses this has a jump distance of 20 feet. The jump spell says "...The creature's jump distance is tripled until the spell ends." A STR 10 monk under the effect of this spell has a jump distance of 30 feet. If the STR 10 monk is under the effect of jump and then uses Step of the Wind, its jump distance, which was 30 ft., is doubled to 60 ft until the end of its turn.

Step of the Wind, jump, Remarkable Athlete, Second-Story Work, and likely other features all fit into the "specific trumps general" concept for jumping and override the general jumping rules. All of them change a creature's jump distance while they are in effect. I would not think that someone would not calculate Remarkable Athlete or Second-Story Work into the distance tripled by a jump spell or Step of the Wind. Neither should the effects of jump or Step of the Wind not be included solely because their effect is temporary.


EDIT: See my later post where I say the jump distance should be 40 ft.
 
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Tormyr

Adventurer
Or an athletic monk to jump twice as far as a strength fighter.
If a player wants to sacrifice Dex or Wis, which are more useful for a monk, for higher Str, sure. The player has likely traded higher AC, higher save DC, or both for a longer jump distance. Additionally, full distance jumps from this monk would run up against even the monk's impressive speed (even with a Dash).
 

5ekyu

Explorer
Except that is not what either Step of the Wind or the jump spell says to do. Neither says your original jump distance is doubled, and no 5e mechanic that I am aware of separates out the original value for adding cumulative bonuses together in this way. It seems to be a mechanic from other games.

Step of the Wind says "...and your jump distance is doubled for the turn." A STR 10 monk who uses this has a jump distance of 20 feet. The jump spell says "...The creature's jump distance is tripled until the spell ends." A STR 10 monk under the effect of this spell has a jump distance of 30 feet. If the STR 10 monk is under the effect of jump and then uses Step of the Wind, its jump distance, which was 30 ft., is doubled to 60 ft until the end of its turn.

Step of the Wind, jump, Remarkable Athlete, Second-Story Work, and likely other features all fit into the "specific trumps general" concept for jumping and override the general jumping rules. All of them change a creature's jump distance while they are in effect. I would not think that someone would not calculate Remarkable Athlete or Second-Story Work into the distance tripled by a jump spell or Step of the Wind. Neither should the effects of jump or Step of the Wind not be included solely because their effect is temporary.
Actually, i am suggesting the specific does trump the general.

the general in this case are the two effects.

the specific is when they are combined... the specific rule on what happens when effects are combined.

it says ADD TOGETHER not multiply together.

Also, the 10' of original movement is not a spell effect so it should not get added twice any more than two effects which increase your AC allow you to count your base AC10 twice.

If your proposal is that the individual spell language should trump the specific rule about what happens when spell effects combine, then that rule is practically useless.

but again, this is mt take based on the rules presented.
 

Tormyr

Adventurer
Actually, i am suggesting the specific does trump the general.

the general in this case are the two effects.

the specific is when they are combined... the specific rule on what happens when effects are combined.

it says ADD TOGETHER not multiply together.

Also, the 10' of original movement is not a spell effect so it should not get added twice any more than two effects which increase your AC allow you to count your base AC10 twice.

If your proposal is that the individual spell language should trump the specific rule about what happens when spell effects combine, then that rule is practically useless.

but again, this is mt take based on the rules presented.
Thanks for pointing this out (again). Based on the text under Combining Magical Effects, which I had not read in a while, I would agree that since Step of the Wind is essentially a spell-like effect, the monk in our example would have a jump distance of 40 ft (the original distance + the effect of Step of the Wind + the effect of jump). This goes back to [MENTION=6748898]ad_hoc[/MENTION] 's ruling all the way at the beginning.

I know that some people get combative and hold to their positions when discussing the finer points of rules and rulings, but I appreciate the opportunity to discuss these things especially when someone such as you keeps their head about it. Sometimes I think I have a pretty good picture of how the rules work. Other times, like now, I realize that I missed something. Regardless of the outcome of a discussion, I am better prepared for a ruling at the table, have my reason ready, and move on. Cheers.
 
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5ekyu

Explorer
Why not 60ft? Does it in amy way break the game? I don't think so and I rather think it is quite cool. So I would go with x6. If yoj gave the character winged boots instead he would be more mobile. Note that jumbping does not directly prevent opportunity attacks or anything. You should however know the advantages and disadvantages of jumping 30ft high during that jump.
well the flip side would also be "why not 50? why not 40?"

What makes 60 more cool than 50?

None of these will break the game. the differences will be small/

the only really question is if the process is applied evenly.

My argument against 60 specifically is that the specific rule for combining spell effects specifies ADD TOGETHER not MULTIPLY and taking one effect that gives you 20' total jump and another that gives you 30' total jump and contriving them to give you 60' total jump when added together (more than the sum of the two effects independently) seems inconsistent.

But in now way do i think its going to break a game.
 

Tormyr

Adventurer
Since there is no stacking rule like in 3e i would assume x2 amd then x3 is x6...
As [MENTION=6919838]5ekyu[/MENTION] pointed out, there is. Under Combining Magical Effects, it says the effects are added together rather than multiplied. This means each effect is taken in isolation before all effects are added together.

This could be read as the effect is the additional distance gained. In that case the additional 10 feet from doubling and the additional 20 feet from tripling a 10 foot jump distance would be added to the original jump distance and result in a 40 foot jump distance.

It could also be argued that the total jump distance is the magical effect. In that case the effects are added together (2x + 3x = 5x).

I prefer the former as more closely models the effect of the magic to me.
 

UngeheuerLich

Adventurer
As [MENTION=6919838]5ekyu[/MENTION] pointed out, there is. Under Combining Magical Effects, it says the effects are added together rather than multiplied. This means each effect is taken in isolation before all effects are added together.

This could be read as the effect is the additional distance gained. In that case the additional 10 feet from doubling and the additional 20 feet from tripling a 10 foot jump distance would be added to the original jump distance and result in a 40 foot jump distance.

It could also be argued that the total jump distance is the magical effect. In that case the effects are added together (2x + 3x = 5x).

I prefer the former as more closely models the effect of the magic to me.
Neither is broken. If you want to read it that way, you surely can.

Sent from my GT-I9506 using EN World mobile app
 

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