Super Speed Attack!

[Brainznolmz]

Some sweet feedback here. I haven't looked to far into it myself, and I haven't been playing for quite some time now, but I always enjoy flipping through the core books. Whoever posted the million attack thing: that's awesome. I'll have to look into that. Those saying that the +25 bonus at level 20 is weak: You're right, but remember that the only feats/skills/items or ANYTHING I added to this theoretical level 20 are the ones necessary to achieve 24 attacks pretty easily and consistently. This build could potentially be more powerful if I had bothered to flesh it out a little more. Keep the feedback coming though, I love it.

 

[delericho]

Those saying that the +25 bonus at level 20 is weak: You're right, but remember that the only feats/skills/items or ANYTHING I added to this theoretical level 20 are the ones necessary to achieve 24 attacks pretty easily and consistently.

Sorry, can you please explain how you think this gets 24 attacks. As I said up-thread, by my count you get 8, which is a pretty huge discrepancy.

 

[Empirate]

You're right - this was a poorly chosen word on my part. I should have said "aren't cumulative". My point remains, though - see the speed weapons and haste spells, or the Improved Critical feat and keen weapons.

The relationship between Speed weapons and Haste, as well as Improved Critical and Keen weapons, are different cases in my book. Both explicitly spell out that they are NOT cumulative, unlike what is the case with Robilar's Gambit in combination with Karmic Strike and/or Defensive Throw. BTW, note how Defensive Throw has even more ambiguous rules text, in that it allows a free trip attempt, which uses up an AoO/round, but isn't itself spelled out to be an AoO...

But here's where I nitpick you on terminology: either way that would be a ruling, not a house rule. Because here the DM is adjudicating a perceived ambiguity in the RAW, rather than explicitly overruling it.

Fair enough, yourself!

Ah, now here you've definitely got something, because as has been discussed several times on these boards recently, 3.5e very heavily favours the casters over the non-casters, such that you practically require a... um... questionable build just to remain competitive.

My impulse with ambiguities is always to "never give them an inch", partly due to a bad experience with a player who would pose something like that, wait for me to accede, and then spring up with "and if you allow that, then presumably you have no problems with this...!" But, of course, I can readily see why YMMV.

I can see where you're coming from in your own gaming experience. My experience has fortunately been more with players who like to optimize a concept so it works similar to what they envision, than with players who like to powergame per se.

The game balance thing wasn't about the infamous melee/caster divide, but about different fighting styles: two-weapon fighting is very much penalized in comparison to wielding a big-ass weapon two-handed. Also, the Fighter class itself rarely finds enough good stuff to do with its plethora of feats, which it gets instead of actually good class features, which is why I like Caelic's build among other things. Most people going for a melee build would probably throw a bunch of Crusader or Warblade, or Shadowpouncing, or ubercharging at the problem. Fighter 20 is rarely seen, and having it built in a way that is competitive (given certain DM decisions) is nice.

 

[delericho]

The relationship between Speed weapons and Haste, as well as Improved Critical and Keen weapons, are different cases in my book. Both explicitly spell out that they are NOT cumulative, unlike what is the case with Robilar's Gambit in combination with Karmic Strike and/or Defensive Throw.

Naturally - Karmic Strike and Robilar's Gambit are in different supplementary books. As far as each is concerned, the other might as well not exist.

BTW, note how Defensive Throw has even more ambiguous rules text, in that it allows a free trip attempt, which uses up an AoO/round, but isn't itself spelled out to be an AoO...

That is a good point.

 

[ImperatorK]

Human Barbarian (Whirling Frenzy Spirit Lion Wolf Totem) 2 / Fighter 8 / Dervish 10.

1. Dodge (human)
1. Mobility
2. Improved Trip (barbarian)
3. Combat Expertise
3. Combat Reflexes (fighter)
4. Martial Study (fighter)
6. Martial Stance
6. Two-Weapon Fighting (fighter)
8. Improved Two-Weapon Fighting (fighter)
9. Weapon Focus
12. Spring Attack (dervish)
12. Robilar's Gambit
13. Shadow Blade (fighter)
15. Greater Two-Weapon Fighting
18. Double Hit

Using two short swords.
Full attack - (4 iteratives + 3 off-hand + 1 speed weapon) x 2 (dervish dance) + potential Great Cleaves.
On enemy's round a few potential AoOs (2 attacks per each).

I know it's a subpar build. I'm too lazy to work harder on it.

 

[Dandu]

Quick note re: Karmic Strike and Robiliar's Gambit; if you look closely, you'll notice that the triggers are slightly different.

Karmic Strike: You can make an attack of opportunity against an opponent that hits you in melee.
Robiliar's Gambit: Anyone who strikes at you gains a +4 bonus on attack rolls and damage rolls against you. In return, they provoke attacks of opportunity from you each time they swing.

 

[Empirate]

Naturally - Karmic Strike and Robilar's Gambit are in different supplementary books. As far as each is concerned, the other might as well not exist.

Well, one came out after the other, so it wouldn't have been hard to have Robilar's Gambit refer to Karmic Strike in its rules text... the books have been published in a chronological sequence, after all, and quite a few do refer to stuff that's not in the core three, but in other supplements that came before.

 

[delericho]

Well, one came out after the other, so it wouldn't have been hard to have Robilar's Gambit refer to Karmic Strike in its rules text... the books have been published in a chronological sequence, after all, and quite a few do refer to stuff that's not in the core three, but in other supplements that came before.

Yes, but they don't (and actually can't) refer to every possible combination of powers available. I don't think you can read anything into the fact that it doesn't specifically call it out - it's entirely possible that the author who wrote Robilar's Gambit simply wasn't aware of Karmic Strike, or even just didn't think of it at the time.

Quick note re: Karmic Strike and Robiliar's Gambit; if you look closely, you'll notice that the triggers are slightly different.

Karmic Strike: You can make an attack of opportunity against an opponent that hits you in melee.
Robiliar's Gambit: Anyone who strikes at you gains a +4 bonus on attack rolls and damage rolls against you. In return, they provoke attacks of opportunity from you each time they swing.

I saw that. But everywhere else in the rules, an action either provokes or does not. There doesn't appear to be any instance where a single action provokes twice. And, as I noted up-thread, the one case where it reasonably might (a character leaves one threatened square for another, and then leaves that second square also), the rules specifically note that this is one opportunity, not two.

Basically, it appears we have a logical OR here - the Fighter with both feats gets to make one AoO if his opponent hits him OR if he swings at him. (And, in fact, since the former is a subset of the latter, this makes Karmic Strike essentially redundant.)

 

[Dandu]

Robiliar's Gambit triggers whens someone strikes at you. Karmic Strike triggers when someone hits you. These are two separate triggers that generate two separate AoOs.

 

[xigbar]

Have your party wizard polymorph you in to anything with multiple arms. I like Arrow Demon personally. One build I did was along that idea, with hand cross bows that had the self-loading enhancement. I had them with Aptitude as well, and had the Shadow Blade feat and Targeteer Fighter from dragon mag. as well, for massive Dex to damage. The attack patter at 20th level, with all buffs accounted for, was +34/+34/+34/+34/+34/+34/+34/+34/+29/+29/+29/+29/+24/+24/+24/+24/+24/+24/+24/+24/+19/+19/+19/+19/+19/+19/+19/+19.