Superhero RPG

[pawsplay]

But Fuzion wasn't as complete as HERO.

Also, it was unplayable in its original form, but that's a side issue to this discussion.

 

[Dr. Confoundo]

You make some good points. On the issue of creating the power, (which I snipped) you're basically doing the same thing with M&M as with Champs, you just have smaller numbers, and in the case of the gadget, a pretty simple extra step. The idea I was trying to get across is that the systems are very similar. If you take a look in the Ultimate Powers book, there is an equation for how to build powers that is exactly the same as the HERO system rules, M&M just doesn't use any fractions.

As far as the game being easier to run in play, I'll just say that the way you're talking about running M&M was the way that I ran HERO for years. I used to run and play in several HERO games a week (ah, college) and after a while I would generate my villains on the fly. It's just something that comes with the familiarity with the system. That may seem like blasphemy to some, but I not only did that, but also didn't write up cell phones, flashlights or similar objects either .

As far as power stunting, I made some power stunting rules many years ago that ALMOST became canon (you're talking to an almost published HERO author) but during the Cybergames fiasco things just didn't work out, it's a shame. I made use of the power use skill and had you make a check based on it in comparison to the effect that you were trying to create. By the book, however, I'll agree with you that M&M has some wicked cool stunt rules. I'll have to see if I can dig up my old rules someday and post them.

The two character generation systems (HERO and M&M) are *extremely* similar. I would argue that M&M took the HERO system and removed all of the problems. I played Champions for a long time, and I could never make a character without a spreadsheet or a calculator at the minimum. M&M has simplified things enormously.

I'm sure that people could and have run HERO games as easily as I've been running M&M games, but you said it yourself - it took you years of playing to be familiar enough to run it on the fly... This is my first campaign of running (or playing) M&M 2e, with very limited experience with 1e. This system is intuitive and balanced enough that I can already run it on the fly.

The power skill in Champions is a good idea, but it would still get bogged down by the more complicated math of the system. If I'd want to power stunt something like making my 10d6 EB into an AE NND field, I'd have to do some serious accounting (which I am awful at) to get it to balance. In M&M, a few quick shifts of ranks, and I'm good to go.

I really enjoyed the Champions system, so don't think for a second that I am putting it down. I still buy the sourcebooks fairly regularly. M&M is just way easier to learn and teach, and the simplifications that it has made over it's HERO-ic predecessor make it a hands-down winner.

 

[Dr. Confoundo]

The difference is in precision. Not all additional abilities are truly equal are they? HERO allows for some advantages to be better than other advantages. Thus you can have the No Normal Defense advantage for +1 and you can have the Difficult to Dispel advantage for +1/4. These advantages do not have the same weight (nor come up as frequently during play) so they should not increase the cost equally. Same goes for disadvantages.

Fuzion took the HERO numbers and divided by 5 (essentially) and it then had adders and limiters that would use a similar equation as M&M. But Fuzion wasn't as complete as HERO.

The values of adders and limiters can and should be debated with your GM. If a limiter isn't worth enough to count as a -1 point per rank, make it a flat -1 point. Similarly, if an adder isn't worth a +1 point per rank, make it a flat +1 point.

M&M and Fuzion are not just very similar beasts... M&M is Fuzion done right. (Fuzion's system wasn't all that bad - it was the eye-bleedingly bad illustrations and tepid sourcebooks that damned it.)

You might say that Fuzion (or M&M) isn't as complete as HERO, but I'd counter it by saying that Fuzion (or M&M) also isn't as needlessly complex as HERO. The knife cuts both ways. YMMV

 

[Aus_Snow]

Another vote for Blood & Vigilance. Actually, that line of books totally rocks.

I'm sure M&M is pretty good and all, but yeah. B&V would still be my preference, over that.

 

[jmucchiello]

The values of adders and limiters can and should be debated with your GM. If a limiter isn't worth enough to count as a -1 point per rank, make it a flat -1 point. Similarly, if an adder isn't worth a +1 point per rank, make it a flat +1 point.

Yeah but for a 100 point power a flat -1 underrates the value of a limitation.

HERO's ratio math is only annoying because it uses fractional fractions. If people don't mind BIG numbers you multiple everything by 4 and start with 1000 point characters instead of 250 point characters. STR costs 4, Dex 12, and Energy Blast is 20 pts per die. All the modifiers are +1, +2, +3, +4, +5 where +4 is the old +1. The ratio formula becomes base points * (4+adds) / (4+lims).

So a 4D6 (80) NND (+4) AoE Radius (+4) Only at night (-2) power would cost 80 * 12 / 6 or 160 pts (240 active). (Old system 4D6 (20) NND (+1) AoE Radius (+1) Only at night (-1/2) costs 20 * 3 / 1.5 or 40 pts (60 active)).

I bet that would solve most of HERO's "complexity" faults. And that change also makes it possible to rebalance the characteristic better: Str could be 5 or 6 instead of 4. Comeliness and stun would be 2 instead of 1/2. But I've now wandered into HERO forums territory.

 

[Nomad4life]

M&M is really good. If you want something a little bit more simple I'd go with Truth and Justice.

This is what I was going to say word for word. Both systems are awesome.

 

[amethal]

another finished his after 3 hours since he wanted a "really original never-before-seen type of character" and the other 3 players kept mentioning names of CD/Marvel characters that could do what he was thinking

 

[amethal]

I'm going to add a vote for Mutants and Masterminds.

Its not perfect, but its pretty good. Both the first and second editions have things I like and things I don't in pretty equal measure, so I can't say I prefer either one.

Every time I come across a thread like this, and get inspired to update to second edition, someone has to post something to make me think I'll do just fine sticking with first edition.

 

[D.Shaffer]

Sure. Joseirus has already appeared in a .pdf by one of the guys over at atomicthinktank.com. Here's the link: http://enworld.rpgnow.com/product_info.php?products_id=20885

...Wow, that came out? I should probably buy a copy at some point, if just to see what ribbons my character got (if any)

 

[Krolik]

Every time I come across a thread like this, and get inspired to update to second edition, someone has to post something to make me think I'll do just fine sticking with first edition.

The main difference between M&M 1e and 2e is degree of character versatility and individuality.

1e is more cookie-cutter in design: one PL 10's powers are basically like every other PL 10's powers in strength level, with only the special effects making them different. Being cookie-cutter adds a level of simplicity but the characters give up individuality. Dr. Aqua will have Super-Strength 10 and Swimming 10 and Protection 10, whereas Captain Aerion will have Air Blast 10, Flight 10, and Force Field 10.

2e is about building the character exactly the way you want it. By using the Trade-off system you can decide you want Dr. Aqua to have Super-Strength 13 and Protection 15. Maybe you want Captain Aerion to have Air Blast 11 but only Force Field 7. You lose the simplicity of the cookie-cutter design because you are buying exactly what you want rather then buying a template but you have more freedom to express yourself with the character.

1e is more like merging D&D and Marvel Saga. I prefer 2e because it's more like merging D&D and Hero, but with much less character creation complexity, much less system and character wordiness, many fewer rules then Hero, and substantially quicker combats.

Some of the things I prefer about 2e include:
More character creation versatility.
Changing the Damage Chart in 2e made for better combats.
Better Skills cost system.
A better balanced PL system due to the way Attack and Defense are handled.
Many of the Powers have been cleaned up and make more sense now.
The Complication and Hero Point system is much better in 2E.