Spoilers Superman Spoiler Thread

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

Though as noted, he's really a Mon-El copy, since the whole Imperial Guard started out as LSH expies on the part of Dave Cockram and Chris Claremont (though his real name is probably a Superman joke).

Marvel during that era was weirdly obsessed with the LSH. Wolverine started off as a "we gotta get us our own Timber Wolf" knock-off.

Now, I love Timber Wolf, particularly from the Five Years Later and miniseries eras, but I have a hard time imagining Marvel Comics losing sleep over him.

 

[Thomas Shey]

Marvel during that era was weirdly obsessed with the LSH. Wolverine started off as a "we gotta get us our own Timber Wolf" knock-off.

That's pretty odd, since I don't think he was exceptionally popular even as Legionnaires went.

Now, I love Timber Wolf, particularly from the Five Years Later and miniseries eras, but I have a hard time imagining Marvel Comics losing sleep over him.

Yeah. I mean, there's always been a hardcore LSH fandom buried within DC fandom, but even among comics fans I have to question how well known there were in general.

(Note: back when I was still reading comics I was a massive LSH fan until the second Giffen period lost me.)

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

(Note: back when I was still reading comics I was a massive LSH fan until the second Giffen period lost me.)

Oh, man. He definitely swung for the fences during his 5YL run, but I think that was really strong until it was fully handed off to the Bierbaums, who just didn't have the comics experience to fully carry it off. (Although they did give us youthful not-clones years before the X-Men tried the same trick, which is becoming a recurrent thing here.)

I thought it was a great evolution of the LSH and adaptation to the Crisis. Mon-El/Valor replacing Superboy, Supergirl/Andromeda being her own person rather than being in Superman's shadow, Glorith, the post-apocalyptic galaxy, more interesting technology, learning the real identity of the Time Trapper in a way that felt like a payoff to previous stories and not something Giffen cooked up late in the game. All so great.

 

[chuckdee]

Marvel during that era was weirdly obsessed with the LSH. Wolverine started off as a "we gotta get us our own Timber Wolf" knock-off.

Now, I love Timber Wolf, particularly from the Five Years Later and miniseries eras, but I have a hard time imagining Marvel Comics losing sleep over him.

It was actually not that they were obsessed - it's just that Cockrum jumped ship from DC to Marvel and Wolverine was supposed to be a throw-away character in the Dark Phoenix saga.

5 Beloved Characters (Who Were Actually Blatant Rip-Offs)

Nobody likes a thief.

www.cracked.com

 

[trappedslider]

Real world science and superhero science have nothing in common.

thank goodness because

 

[Thomas Shey]

Oh, man. He definitely swung for the fences during his 5YL run, but I think that was really strong until it was fully handed off to the Bierbaums, who just didn't have the comics experience to fully carry it off. (Although they did give us youthful not-clones years before the X-Men tried the same trick, which is becoming a recurrent thing here.)

I thought it was a great evolution of the LSH and adaptation to the Crisis. Mon-El/Valor replacing Superboy, Supergirl/Andromeda being her own person rather than being in Superman's shadow, Glorith, the post-apocalyptic galaxy, more interesting technology, learning the real identity of the Time Trapper in a way that felt like a payoff to previous stories and not something Giffen cooked up late in the game. All so great.

The problem is that virtually every handling of the Legionnaires he did in the second run grated on me, and that was over and above the artwork not working for me at all. I'm not one of the people who was going to come out and tell him he shouldn't have evolved his art in a direction he wanted it to, but I also didn't feel a need to claim to like it when I didn't.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

Come to think of it, that bit reminds me somewhat of another great hero: Esmeralda Weatherwax.

"There is a very interesting debate raging at the moment about the nature of sin, for example," said Oats. "And what do they think? Against it, are they?" said Granny Weatherwax.
"It’s not as simple as that. It’s not a black and white issue. There are so many shades of gray."
"Nope."
"Pardon?"
"There’s no grays, only white that’s got grubby. I’m surprised you don’t know that. And sin, young man, is when you treat people as things. Including yourself. That’s what sin is.
"It’s a lot more complicated than that . . ."
"No. It ain’t. When people say things are a lot more complicated than that, they means they’re getting worried that they won’t like the truth. People as things, that’s where it starts."
"Oh, I’m sure there are worse crimes . . ."
"But they starts with thinking about people as things . . . "
—Terry Pratchett, Carpe Jugulum

Ah, this Esmeralda Weatherwax is a remarkable woman...

 

[billd91]

Though as noted, he's really a Mon-El copy, since the whole Imperial Guard started out as LSH expies on the part of Dave Cockram and Chris Claremont (though his real name is probably a Superman joke).

No, I'd say Gladiator is really pretty much Superman - or, more accurately, SuperBOY since the source comic was still Superboy and the Legion of Superheroes when the Imperial Guard duped them.

And let's face it, Mon-El is basically a Superman/boy clone anyway. It's notoriously common throughout DC comics to have Superman knock offs. That's why PS238 kind of parodied the trend with the character 84 - the 84th super with "standard FISS powers" - FISS being the flight, invulnerability, strength, speed powers that copy Superman.

 

[Thomas Shey]

No, I'd say Gladiator is really pretty much Superman - or, more accurately, SuperBOY since the source comic was still Superboy and the Legion of Superheroes when the Imperial Guard duped them.

Was he? I thought Superboy was not a regular member during that period. But its too long and I don't trust my memory.

And let's face it, Mon-El is basically a Superman/boy clone anyway.

Well, yeah, when he first appeared Clark thought he was a long-lost brother as Lar had amnesia at the time.

It's notoriously common throughout DC comics to have Superman knock offs. That's why PS238 kind of parodied the trend with the character 84 - the 84th super with "standard FISS powers" - FISS being the flight, invulnerability, strength, speed powers that copy Superman.

In the end, its for much the same reason there's a lot of Batman look-and-feel characters over there; both characters spawn adjacent characters frequently (not that its unknown with others (looks at the Green Lantern and Flash franchises).

 

[jian]

No, I'd say Gladiator is really pretty much Superman - or, more accurately, SuperBOY since the source comic was still Superboy and the Legion of Superheroes when the Imperial Guard duped them.

And let's face it, Mon-El is basically a Superman/boy clone anyway. It's notoriously common throughout DC comics to have Superman knock offs. That's why PS238 kind of parodied the trend with the character 84 - the 84th super with "standard FISS powers" - FISS being the flight, invulnerability, strength, speed powers that copy Superman.

You’re quite right - Superboy departed the Legion (and the series title, which was Superboy and the Legion of Super-Heroes until then) in 1980, which surprised me, that seems very late. And of course Cockrum worked on the title back in 1973-4, and the Imperial Guard was created by Cockrum and Claremont in 1977.

It’s interesting that the IG doesn’t actually have that many LSH expies, even though they’re a very famous expy collection; they don’t compare to the Squadron Supreme or similar. There’s Gladiator, Oracle, Fang, Astra, Hobgoblin, Mentor, Smasher, and Titan; the others are less obvious.