Supersolo rules

[Fieari]

Upper Krust, in his infinitely tardy manner, has discussed a number of fascinating concepts regarding monster usage. Basically, he has proposed that any creature can be taken and modified +/- 5 levels by changing its status, say, from standard to minion, or from elite to solo. Furthermore, a solo could be made into a minion by modifying it's level +15, so that if you want to have a room full of young white dragons at the paragon tier, you can do so with ease. Alternatively, a minion can be made a solo, dropping it's level -15.

He's also teased us with what he calls "Supersolo" rules, which would add an extra -5 you can tack on to a creature. His proposal was basically to treat each supersolo like Lolth, in that after you kill it, it turns into another solo. I have another proposal I'd like to offer in contrast. (Reposted from U_K's private forum):

My idea is the following:

1) Supersolos are primarily solos, but MUST include triggered actions, immediate actions, and other such ways of acting off its normal turn; in addition to the normal multi-targeting / AOE attacks solos always get. Solos sometimes get these anyway, but supersolos MUST have them.

2) Supersolos must have an escape move, much like deities, except not necessarily magical in nature. This escape move can be countered in different manners depending on the tier:

Heroic: Physically blocking exits. Surrounding the area (in a circle) with physical NPC allies.
Paragon: Magically blocking exits. Surrounding the area (in a sphere) with supernatural NPC allies.
Epic: Obtaining, via quest, an artifact that binds the target. Hunting the being down to their lair.

3) The critical defining feature: Supersolos cannot be damaged at all until a skill challenge has been passed. Once the skill challenge has been passed, the supersolo can only be damaged up to just above bloodied level until a second skill challenge is passed. Once that is passed, the supersolo may activate its escape ability unless prevented (cornered) in some way. If escape is preventing, the supersolo still may not be killed until a THIRD skill challenge is passed.

The skill challenge will be of Stalker 0's Obsidian Skill challenge type, seen here (see "Combat Skill Challenges" section)

4) Supersolos can spend an action point once per segment. Once before receiving any damage once before bloodying, and once after bloodying.

And, an example:

Winter Nymph Lvl 1 Supersolo Artillary
Medium fey humanoid Exp 600?
HP 116; Bloodied 58; Initiative +4
AC 15; Perception +4; Low Light Vision
Fortitude 16; Reflex 18; Will 15
Speed 7 (Forest Walk), Fly 10


Traits

Blizzard Gale * Aura 5
Players cannot enter the aura radius, ranged attacks targeting anything within or past the aura auto miss, area attacks are deflected outside the aura. Blizzard Gale is ignored once the party has passed an Obsidian Skill Challenge (Mental).

Primary Skills (DC 17): Arcana, Nature. Standard Skills (DC 18): History, Insight, Perception, Religion.
When the Blizzard Gale is defeated, the Winter Nymph regains any spent action points.

Frost Armor
Any attack that would bloody the Winter Nymph instead brings her to her bloodied HP plus one (59 hp). Frost Armor is ignored once the party has passed an Obsidian Skill Challenge (Physical).

Primary Skills (DC 17): Athletics, Endurance. Standard Skills (DC 18): Acrobatics, Heal, Stealth, Thievery, Nature
When the Frost Armor is defeated, the Winter Nymph regains any spent action points.

Fragile Beauty * (Gaze) Immediate Interrupt * At Will
Any attack that would fatally injure the Winter Nymph is cancelled as if never attempted, but the attacker still loses their action. This effect is ignored once the party has passed an Obsidian Skill Challenge (Social).

Primary Skills (DC 17): Insight, Streetwise. Standard Skills (DC 18): Bluff, Diplomacy, Intimidate, Nature


Standard Actions

Frozen Knife (weapon) * At Will
Attack: Melee 1 (one creature); +6 vs AC
Hit: 1d10+4 damage, target is slowed (save ends) and the nymph shifts 1 square.

Winter Wind (cold, weapon) * At Will
Attack: Area burst 1 within 20 (enemies in burst); +8 vs Fort
Hit: 1d10+2 damage, targets are slowed (save ends) and slide 1 square.
Miss: Targets slide 1 square.

Nettling Wind (cold) * Recharge
Attack: Close blast 5 (enemies in burst); +6 vs Fort
Hit: 1d10+3 damage, targets are immobilized (save ends).

Hail of Arrows (weapon) * Recharge
Attack: Area burst 5 within 20 (enemies in burst); +8 vs AC
Hit: 2d10+3 damage, and ongoing 5 damage (save ends).


Minor Actions

Wind Gust * At Will
Attack: Close Blast 3; +6 vs Fort
Hit: Target is pushed 3 squares

Icy Glare (Gaze) * At Will
Attack: Ranged 10; +6 vs Will
Hit: Target is Dazed (save ends)


Triggered Actions

Frost Touch * At Will
Trigger: An enemy hits the Nymph in melee
Effect (Immediate Reaction): The triggering enemy takes 1d4 cold damage, and the Winter Nymph shifts 1 square.

Sudden Blow * At Will
Trigger: An enemy granting combat advantage attacks the Nymph
Effect: The Nymph makes any standard or minor action attack against the triggering enemy.

Wind Escape * Encounter
Trigger: The Nymph is bloodied
Effect: The Nymph attacks with Winter Wind (centered on herself), immediately gains a move action, and may spend up to two action points on additional actions. For each action point spent on this turn, the Winter Nymph may move AND attack with Winter Wind (centered on herself only).

Action points: 2
Str: 16 (+3) Dex: 19 (+4) Wis: 18 (+4)
Con: 13 (+1) Int: 13 (+1) Cha: 12 (+1)

 

[SimonTVesper]

It seems that a creature like this would be more than just a typical boss fight. Characters need to know something about their adversary (history, lair location, weaknesses, strengths, etc; as much as they can learn, or the DM will give them) in order to stand a chance of defeating it. Then again, I haven't read up on the Obsidian Challenge yet, so maybe some of this is included there...

 

[Fieari]

That's part of the point, that it is very clearly beyond a normal boss fight. This is a climactic fight against someone very very clearly stronger than you... note that Winter Nymphs are normally level 15 standard creatures.

This is definitely not something you STUMBLE upon. This is that fight. The one that in 3.x edition you would have researched and studied and planned for (but, since it was 3e, once you joined the battle, there'd be no real fight left, just execution of plan).

This is the monster that is clearly beyond the players, but they get a shot at it anyway, because of sheer awesome epicness.


As far as reading up on the obsidian system, the basics you need to know is that it's skill challenge that takes place during a fight, failures do not count against you, and you succeed upon a certain number of successes based on party size. For a group of 5, for instance, you'd need 8 successes spread across the entire party, which COULD be done in two rounds, except that it takes a move action to try a skill. And the fight is going on.

Now, the skill checks in this proposed system aren't just to learn about the creature, but actually to actively combat it at the moment.


With the example creature I gave, for instance, I imagined the skill checks to look for openings in the constant wind blasts, seeing how to manipulate her movements to a place where she can't quite as effectively use the aura, and so on and so forth. Each success moves the party closer to the point where they can get in that windy area without being blown back, either by compensating for the winds somehow or stopping her from using it.

It's not just knowing about the creature, it's having to do more to kill it than swing a sword and a few spells around. Because the sword isn't going to cut it, this creature is plain better than you. 15 levels better, in this case. But in 4e, you can adjust the math, while still keeping the danger!

 

[Tequila Sunrise]

Hm, a few comments and questions:

How many PCs is a supersolo supposed to challenge?

I'm not a fan of triggered actions; I admit, I'm a total airhead during the players' turns. So I'd rather pile more damage in during my monsters' turns.

I'm having trouble imagining how I would narrate these skill challenges. I guess the blizzard isn't such a stretch; the PCs are using arcane and primal power to quiet the storm. But the social one...I just don't know. Are the PCs seducing her, or what?

 

[pippenainteasy]

I like the Lolth idea, it keeps it simple. By having two forms, her true bloodied value is closer to 25% of her hit points. So she has 25% more hit points than a typical solo deity of her level.

On the other hand, Lolth's offensive capabilities are so horrid compared to Tiamat for example, having that extra 50% HP is merely a slight boost to close the gap. Realistically you'd probably have to triple Lolth's hit points to make her an equal threat to Tiamat.

 

[pippenainteasy]

As far as supersolos, wouldn't just using giving a solo allies make sense?

Look at Draconomicon 1 (page 247):

Level 30+ Encounter (XP 348,000)
♦ Tiamat (level 35 solo brute)
♦[FONT=&quot] 1 ancient red dragon (level 30 solo soldier, MM 83)[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]♦[FONT=&quot] 2 dragonborn champions (level 26 soldier, MM 87)

[/FONT][FONT=&quot]This looks to me like an example of a well-designed level encounter for a party of five or six Level 30 characters.
[/FONT]

 

[Fieari]

Hm, a few comments and questions:

How many PCs is a supersolo supposed to challenge?

I'm not a fan of triggered actions; I admit, I'm a total airhead during the players' turns. So I'd rather pile more damage in during my monsters' turns.

I'm having trouble imagining how I would narrate these skill challenges. I guess the blizzard isn't such a stretch; the PCs are using arcane and primal power to quiet the storm. But the social one...I just don't know. Are the PCs seducing her, or what?

I'd imagine a supersolo challenging 4 or 5 PCs, alone without allies. Which is part of the point.

As far as the social challenge, I considered it a case of the PC's psyching themselves up, convincing themselves that their foe is their foe, debating within themselves in over to overcome the task. On the other hand, the idea of possibly seducing HER, falling in love with her, and only then being able of betraying her to slip in the blade... that has some serious story-weight to it as well.

I guess it goes to show that the writeups for the three defensive abilities really need to describe how the skill challenge works better.

As far as supersolos, wouldn't just using giving a solo allies make sense?

Look at Draconomicon 1 (page 247):

Level 30+ Encounter (XP 348,000)
♦ Tiamat (level 35 solo brute)
♦ 1 ancient read dragon (level 30 solo soldier, MM 83)
♦ 2 dragonborn champions (level 26 soldier, MM 87)

This looks to me like an example of a well-designed level encounter for a party of five or six Level 30 characters.

I don't deny that it is. Fighting solo monsters with other monsters around is pretty good design. The supersolo, on the other hand, is a little bit more. Instead of other creatures eating up players' actions and distracting them, there's skill challenges to face.

It's like the philosophy of making interesting terrain, but building it into the monster. It's providing support-- in the monster itself. And it gives more actions and tactics and things to do.

And none of this says that the encounter you listed isn't a good one, or isn't an interesting one. But variety is the spice of life, no?

The trick is, I think, really down to imagining good skill challenges and describing them.


Perhaps the Winter Nymph wasn't the greatest example. One of the concepts of supersolos being discussed was the possibility of super-sizing creatures. Dealing with beings larger than gargantuan, larger than 3e's colossal, larger than colossal+ was even. Shadows of the Colossus big, or bigger.

So, lets reimagine the tarrasque a little bit. To be frank, I'm not really sure the existing tarrasque should really BE a level 30 solo-- I think the only reason it was really set there is that the tarrasque was the biggest baddest monster in the 3e monster manual. But the tarrasque was weaker than all the stuff in the 3e Epic Level Handbook... so, let's drop the existing tarrasque down to level 20.

Now, let's modify the thing. Make it the size of a large castle, in and of itself. Maybe even make it the size of a mountain, like Cespinarve Rogue (from Thieves and Kings; the dragon who ate cities in one bite) Bigger than anything 4e has dreamed of. Now, we have something that would be tricky even for a level 30 team, especially with earthbinding. Maybe 30 is too LOW now, and you'd want to think about level 40 or 50 except that the math doesn't work for monsters that powerful.

You'd have massive reaching area attacks for its melee strikes as it swipes at you. You have the ground crumbling in earthquakes at it's footsteps. You have the target area out of reach.

So, you make it a supersolo. First skill challenge is getting past the earthquakes, to get close enough to do ANYTHING. Then you can plink away at it's legs, and perhaps fire ranged attacks up higher, but nothing REALLY vulnerable is available. So, you pull a Shadow of the Colossus and start climbing; the second skill challenge. Then, from on its back, you fight it as it tries scratching you off... maybe you deal with some nasty parasites it carries along (ala cloverfield)... but when it seems you've got it on the ropes, it keeps regenerating instead! So you break out another skill challenge, perhaps you in fact break INTO the Tarrasque in a lavos-esq manner, get out your epic magic rituals, and finish it off for good while enduring whatever the beast has inside.

It's the idea of a monster that hitting it is just not going to be enough. There's more to the story, and that additional bit can be cinematic and exciting, and hopefully make players think while they sweat.

 

[pippenainteasy]

Hmmm...

Tarrasque, how about add:

♦ half damage from ranged and melee attacks
♦ add weakening to earthbinding aura 20 (creatures within the aura are weakened until the end of their next turn).
♦ Regeneration 50
♦ add insubstantial to represent just how large the creature is, hitting it like striking it's nose hairs.

Now you've got a creature with the equivalent of 11,360 hit points and regenerates 50 HP per round


(edit: to do 1 point of damage against this Tarrasque you would need to do 88HP of damage, since your damage is halved three times, and it also has resist 10 to all...plus it regenerates...I think I just created a creature that would require 1,000 level 30 wizards to put down).

 

[Tequila Sunrise]

I'd imagine a supersolo challenging 4 or 5 PCs, alone without allies. Which is part of the point.

I asked because 'supersolo' implies that the creature is a caste above a solo, just as a solo is a caste above an elite. So I [wrongly] inferred that a supersolo was meant to be a challenge for 6+ PCs.

As far as the social challenge, I considered it a case of the PC's psyching themselves up, convincing themselves that their foe is their foe, debating within themselves in over to overcome the task. On the other hand, the idea of possibly seducing HER, falling in love with her, and only then being able of betraying her to slip in the blade... that has some serious story-weight to it as well.

Especially if one or more of the PCs is female.

(edit: to do 1 point of damage against this Tarrasque you would need to do 88HP of damage, since your damage is halved three times, and it also has resist 10 to all...plus it regenerates...I think I just created a creature that would require 1,000 level 30 wizards to put down).

*shudder* You must DM some seriously masochistic players.

 

[Fieari]

I asked because 'supersolo' implies that the creature is a caste above a solo, just as a solo is a caste above an elite. So I [wrongly] inferred that a supersolo was meant to be a challenge for 6+ PCs.

It is meant to be a tier above. But like pippen said earlier in the thread, a solo creature is ironically best used with other creatures. One intention for supersolos is that it be able to be used actually solo.

That doesn't necessarily have to be the case, as shown when I talked about the potential lvl 30 supersolo tarrasque literally the size of a castle-- fighting off parasites on the thing's back-- but that was solely because at that point in the fight, the tarrasque was limited in what it could do to the players, much as in Shadow of the Colossus, the Colossi tended to be powerless against you once you were on their backs. So something was needed to enable attacks. In that sense, you could consider the parasites to be part of the tarrasque, and would likely be part of its statblock.

Ironically, that means moving back towards the Lolth idea of multiple successive statblocks. And that's not a bad idea really, except that I really like the concept of separating the segments with skill challenges to really hammer in the point that this being you are fighting is simply more powerful than you should normally be expected to face, yet you have the ability to face it anyway using EVERYTHING you've got, not just your combat skills.

Especially if one or more of the PCs is female.

I didn't consider this purely because my current group has none such. I should have remembered that this is not necessarily the case, and it's possible I'll be getting a 5th player (female) in the next few weeks.

(edit: to do 1 point of damage against this Tarrasque you would need to do 88HP of damage, since your damage is halved three times, and it also has resist 10 to all...plus it regenerates...I think I just created a creature that would require 1,000 level 30 wizards to put down).

*shudder* You must DM some seriously masochistic players.

Yeah... that's precisely the OPPOSITE of what I'm after. I don't want MORE combat abilities and MORE hp grind, I want actions OTHER than combat abilities being used.