D&D General Supposing D&D is gamist, what does that mean?

clearstream

(He, Him)
Who said anything about knowing more? There is a reason the GNS framework calls them "process" Sim vs "High Concept" sim. The rules of "process" Sim know nothing, no more than a computer running a program knows anything, even if that program is an extremely advanced neural network that can generate novel images.
So here I was speaking of the knowledge game designers.

They simply are taken as the rules of what is, and generate results. If you think those results should be honored essentially no matter what, you favor "purist-for-system"/G&S design. If you think those rules not only can be but should be ignored literally every single time they defy some kind of projected expectation, whatever that expectation might be, then you are not a "purist-for-system"/G&S design fan, and are likely looking for C&E instead.

G&S design projects nothing, except the rules themselves.
An issue we ran across in the simulationist thread was an intuition that the simulation needed to produce a plausible world. Folk wanted to rule out simply - the product of a consistent set of rules - as a purpose. There was a sense of world-first design: that the designers needed to have a world in mind that they intended their rules to be productive of.

Alright. I've been pretty consistent about that up until now, so I'm a little surprised this is tripping you up. "Process" is not "realism." It often associates with "realism" (note the quotes, since it's not actually real things a lot of the time), but as I mentioned upthread, it is perfectly comfortable with actively non-realistic things if they arise by naturalistic reasoning and deductive logic from the rules as presented. Just as few people exclusively want a Score-and-Achievement design with ABSOLUTELY NOTHING else, few people exclusively want an absolutely purist Groundedness-and-Simulation design. FKR, by comparison, strikes me as being an actual legit absolutely-purist C&E "design," because it rejects any and all rules or structures in the name of delivering the right kind of overall experience. That's the essence of a C&E gameplay loop: faithful portrayal. In this case, at any cost, hence why I see it as an absolutist/purist "design." (Quotes because I don't actually see FKR as being designed at all, other than the vestigial "table for what bad things can happen" bit. It is actively disengaging from the design process.)
But to check then, is that what you had in mind? The world could be any world at all - however absurd - just so long as it is one the designers had in mind, and that their game procedures were productive of?

Rerolls aren't advantage though. I'm specifically talking about "roll two dice at the same time, and take whichever one is better." Rerolls have existed since the dawn of time, I'm sure you could find reroll mechanics in ancient Roman dice games if we had records thereof. But the specific structure of Advantage, specifically as it appears in D&D? 4e Avenger.

From Bo9S 2006
SHADOW BLADE TECHNIQUE As part of this maneuver, you make a single melee attack against an opponent. Unlike on a normal attack, you roll 2d20 and select which of the two die results to use.
 

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Aldarc

Legend
I suspect the key is the question of who is empowered to introduce these dramatic needs and how or when they are focused on. 5e, as a system, doesn't really provide any pathway by which the players get to do that. The GM owns the fiction, even character backstory. There is not really a strong call for the GM to focus on handing off to players on any of this, and definitely no substantive mechanics which do that. It is absolutely POSSIBLE, but we have all definitely acknowledged that.
"It's possible, but..." is a pretty good summation of the problems at the heart in this discussion. As has been discussed elsewhere, one of the greatest pieces of salesmanship by TSR and WotC has been convincing gamers that D&D is an omni-system that can be hacked to do anything rather than a game with its own set of play principles, focus, assumptions, including strengths and weaknesses. This often makes it difficult for people to see how "it's possible, but..." equally applies to D&D as it does to other games, sometimes with some degree of hypocritical special pleading: e.g., "D&D can be hacked to do anything, but [non-D&D system X]* is only a bespoke indie game."

* Nevermind all the various hacks of [non-D&D system X].

I fundamentally never really got what you were supposed to DO with 3e, it just played like a game that was BORKED, though honestly I have only played 3.5 and even then not a lot. It seems like a very confused 'design'. Like they focused on certain specific stuff, and removed a lot of crazy crufty nonsense that 2e had in it, but there's NO GLOBAL VISION at all. Like the designers really didn't have a clear idea what they were doing...
The global vision seems to be oriented around character-building customization (e.g,. Heroes/Champions) - i.e., player character as MtG deck building - but IMHO 3e didn't go far enough. It may as well have been a point system. Hacks like True 20, M&M, Grim Tales, Modern Age, etc. seemed to distill the build-your-own-character aspects of 3e better than 3e D&D, but they were still crippled by the math of 3e's dysfunctional multiclassing.

Clearly though in the 10 years between the design of 3e and 4e WotC did up its game in terms of mastering actual purposeful RPG design. SAGA and 4e both stand head and shoulders above anything they did previously. 4e does have a number of design flaws, but they're pretty tolerable overall, and I think really its problem as a product is purely in terms of people not knowing what to expect, and not really being told what they were getting vs any actual issue with the product at all.

5e DOES learn a lot from 4e in terms of intent, but I just don't like the 2e-ish incoherent design and, frankly it feels strategically like a cul-de-sac of design. There's no direction for it to go in, its what it is and I have this horrible suspicion that as tastes change and evolve 5e and D&D generally really will finally reach obsolescence. Maybe a 5e that was a true successor to 4e would sell less, OTOH there's a heck of a lot of places you can go with that design, it could be explored for 5 more decades.
Aside: If 4e is locked (mostly) behind the GSL, I'm now wondering how a revised 4e would look if it was hacked onto or around the 5e chassis but with 4e design principles and mechanics... :unsure:
 

clearstream

(He, Him)
A designed thing, especially a designed thing with rules,

My interest, with this taxonomy, is to consider the families of "purposes" that roleplaying games may be designed to pursue.
Based on recent conversation, I had a thought I'd like to test.

Consider
Score-and-Achievement. Must have system.
Groundedness-and-Simulation. Must have system.
Conceit-and-Emulation. May have system, there are examples in freeform.
Values-and-Issues. May have system, there are examples in freeform.

And now insist on system - a designed thing with rules. Perhaps comprising some number of game texts, indexes, icons, symbols.
Score-and-Achievement. Must have system.
Groundedness-and-Simulation. Must have system.
Conceit-and-Emulation. Must have system.
Values-and-Issues. Must have system.

Freeform falls out of the taxonomy so that - at least from this taxonomy's point of view - freeform RPG does not exist. I am not saying there is anything wrong with that, only that it seems worth noticing. (Freeform RPG doesn't exist as "a designed thing with rules".)
 

Returning to my "game-(design-)purposes" taxonomy and some of the input @clearstream and others have given, but starting (almost) from scratch in terms of examining and presenting it...

A designed thing, especially a designed thing with rules, must have a goal, an end. Laws and rules, as part of their very nature, are teleological. They must point toward a goal or purpose, and should they produce results genuinely counter to that goal or purpose, they not only can but should be changed until they meet their purpose. The process of designing anything is, in part, the process of figuring out what tools will accomplish the chosen end(s) effectively, learning what standards or functions those tools can serve, applying those tools and functions toward that end, and then checking to see whether the designed thing does the task or meets the standard of judgment for the purpose that it was created.

My interest, with this taxonomy, is to consider the families of "purposes" that roleplaying games may be designed to pursue. As a result, this is a descriptive effort, though in being descriptive I am not opposed to the possibility of finding a lacuna that can be filled with a theoretical not-widely-grokked option. As this is concerned with the overall reason for why someone would make a given game, rather than the specific methods that would work well for a given "overall reason why," individual techniques may certainly be an interesting side or follow-up discussion but are not strictly my area of focus. Furthermore, as my focus is on the thing the designer "sets out for," it is not strictly interested in things that would motivate players to choose to play the game, even though player motivation is absolutely an important and valid aspect of game design.

Having reflected on others' models, in particular Edwards', and on my own experience with roleplay, I have come to the conclusion that most "game-purposes" define some kind of central concept(s) that will drive the interest or focus of play, and then some general category of action that will constitute the process of play (from a design perspective—that is, what might be called the "gameplay loop," which is distinct from the literal lived-through process of play that actual players experience, in the same way that a blueprint differs from the physical object it generates.)

I have seen, both in games I have personally played and in the ways others talk about games whether or not I have played them, at least four distinct "game-purposes," that I choose to label with an "X-and-Y" (or, abbreviated, X&Y, just the first letters) format. These are as follows.

Score-and-Achievement. This is "game-purpose" in arguably its most literal sense, making a roleplaying game in order for it to be a game, with points or grades or numerical/evaluative testing of some kind, balance, difficulty curves, etc. A really ultra-pure S&A game is centered on that process of mastering the rules and then engaging in their skillful use in ways that matter to the player(s.) Few games are quite that purely S&A in design, though, as they usually provide context for why success would be relevant.
"Score" refers to the designer-created system or structure that allows at least partially objective measurement or evaluation of performance within the Situations the system considers. A game that includes Score, in general, needs a concept of "fairness" in order for that Score to be valid and worthy of player attention, and needs to not play fast and loose with the game rules so that the Score can retain relevance as a metric of evaluation and not just a random number or keyword. Score also, generally speaking, benefits from clarity, both in the sense of "transparency" (it is easy to see how the rules work and interact) and specificity (the use of keywords and other unambiguous terms/"jargon.")
"Achievement" is the action, by players, of pursuing success in goals, where that success can be measured or evaluated via the already-defined Score. I specifically call this "Achievement" rather than something like "striving" or "attempting" because S&A design specifically emphasizes a focus on success, with failure pretty clearly seen as an undesirable state, something to avoid or correct, which is generally not shared with the other "game-purposes." This "game-purpose" is pretty much inarguably the oldest and best-demonstrated of the bunch, having been the heart of the first TTRPG. As a result it can sometimes be glossed over as being intuitive or already explored because it is old hat, but this is not always the case (as Clearstream has demonstrated purely by making this thread!)

Groundedness-and-Simulation. Though a popular interest, this "game-purpose" has occasionally struggled to see effective design, perhaps because it focuses least on any specific part of the phrase "roleplaying game," being neither about the role one plays, nor about being a game in the sense that S&A is. Rather, G&S is about the process of inserting or immersing the player, via their character, into the fictional world with its various rules and components, and letting things naturally advance, with minimal influence or modification by the person facilitating this experience once the ball starts rolling. In many ways, this is where TTRPGs intersect most with auteur cinema and authorship as in novels; there is a huge emphasis on worldbuilding and consistency and precision.
That's where "Groundedness" is established: someone (almost always the GM or the author of the premade setting or adventure) setting up a believable, cognizable, "realistic" (but still fantastical) context. This is vitally important ground work for the process of play, as an ungrounded fictional context is too unreliable or too incoherent to make sense of (unless that sort of thing is the point, e.g. the context is a dreamworld or the like where inconsistency is expected, but that's a rare exception where minimum Groundedness has a grounded reason for being very low.) Then, players themselves advance the state of the world (with the GM/module/system doing the behind-the-scenes heavy lifting) via naturalistic, context-appropriate decision-making: Simulation. They collectively Simulate (read: run the processes for an intended accurate model of) a world and its inhabitants and how they would process and respond to the established world and its rules.
Unexpected, emergent phenomena often result from these things. The intended gameplay loop usually involves having a goal within the established world (usually, but not necessarily, GM-provided) and a set of resources (possibly including information and time as "resources") which may be turned toward that goal, with the best play occurring when one finds a satisfactory path to that goal which employs those resources in clever or efficient ways or leverages unexpected confluences of the rules. Reasoning, extrapolation, and prediction are highly valued.

Conceit-and-Emulation. Almost as old as G&S (it's hard to tell which came first), but moving in very different directions, this is the "game-purpose" of faithful depiction of a theme, what is called a High Concept in cinema. Internal physical/naturalistic consistency is of minimal relevance, instead the High Concept is king, dictating what design elements will be included and wrapping the gameplay loop around itself. In general this High Concept, which I call the Conceit, will be chosen by the GM herself, though it may come from an outside source, or might even be collaborated on by the group, but rarely if ever will arise from an individual ordinary player picking it. From there, the gameplay loop focuses on developing satisfying and (ideally) enlightening portrayals of the Conceit(s), which is "Emulation."
Where an ultra-pure S&A game just cares about besting challenges and superlative success, and an ultra-pure S&G game follows naturalistic reasoning wherever it may lead, C&E welcomes elements that enforce the tropes or characteristics of the Conceit even if they might not be "effective" or "realistic," because the purpose of play is to elevate Conceit so that it can be appreciated more. Genres are one of the primary options for Conceit, but other choices are not unusual ("wacky hijinks" comedic games, for example). Because of this interest in Conceit, this "game-purpose" is much more amenable to active-in-play GM force than the previous two in their pure forms would be. (S&A generally opposes GM force outside of setting up the opposition/challenge, while G&S generally opposes GM force once the Simulation has started unless it is needed to expand the world content in a direction that hasn't previously been fleshed out.) Making "behind the scenes" tweaks to ensure a fulfilling portrayal is welcome here.

Values-and-Issues. The most recent, and most easily misunderstood, game-purpose. Here, the point of play is for the players themselves to declare what matters to them and then pursue or abandon those things specifically through the process of play. When this is actually facilitated by the system, it means the players have tools for establishing their Values in a concrete way, usually with incentives or rewards for doing things that exemplify, test, question, or invalidate these Values. Where a Conceit is more like an ambiance, a tone or vibe pervading the overall experience, Values are specific to each character and (typically) chosen by the player, since it can be challenging to choose to care about something that someone else has imposed on you.
But if you merely said, "I care about X" or "my goal is Y," that wouldn't really get anywhere, would it? To actually go somewhere, there must be some form of conflict or difficulty (all the "game-purposes have some kind of conflict, they differ on where it's located and how it's processed). For V&I, conflict arises in the form of Issues: points of uncertainty or even crisis, where the Values are on the line. An important characteristic of Issues compared to other conflicts, though, is that they generally follow after the set Values, rather than being decided separately in advance (as is generally the case for most other "game-purposes.") In the crucible of Issues, Values are tried and the resolve and beliefs of the character are put to proof. As a result, particularly in comparison to S&A design, "success" is generally not unequivocally preferable to failure even at the small scale--which is part of why "Fail Forward" is a technique strongly associated with games of this overall "game-purpose," such as Dungeon World. "Success" is nice, sure, but the "be a protagonist, face difficulty" gameplay loop functions little differently whether goals consistently succeed or consistently fail (though there's certainly a likelihood of darker characters if they fail all the time!)

We generally tend not to agree on anything, but I have to thank and commend you on the work you've put into this. I find your articulation of the matter well though out and exceedingly clear. (y)


@EzekielRaiden

Some label changes to consider for your model:

Score + Achievement = Distill Skill

Groundedness + Simulation = I’m there

Conceit + Emulation = Experience genre

Purpose + Conflict = Distill Protagonism

Please no! No more catchy but confusing buzzphrases like "play to find out" and "fiction first" which to a casual observer just sound like generic turns of phrases one might use, whilst they're actually terms of art that refer to very specific things, which may or may not actually correspond to the associations the phrase conjures. ER's titles are good because they are obviously some sort of technical terms.
 
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Fair enough. I guess my point would be that the popularity of a game is based on a lot of factors, and the quality of the game design itself is probably not even in the top three. I don't think 5e is not functional, by the way, albeit I am not a fan.
If one's analytical model ends up classifying something as poor quality, but people seem to like that thing nevertheless, then it would be intellectually honest to at least consider the possibility that one's model may be somehow lacking or perhaps biased towards ones' own tastes. That the people who like the thing are not actually fools who do not care about quality, and that the thing may have some sort of quality your model doesn't properly acknowledge.
 

soviet

Hero
If one's analytical model ends up classifying something as poor quality, but people seem to like that thing nevertheless, then it would be intellectually honest to at least consider the possibility that one's model may be somehow lacking or perhaps biased towards ones' own tastes. That the people who like the thing are not actually fools who do not care about quality, and that the thing may have some sort of quality your model doesn't properly acknowledge.
Strawman. I didn't say 5e was poor quality. I think the game design is mediocre quality. There are a variety of other factors in a product's quality and popularity including branding/IP, quality of art/graphic design, quality of writing, adventures/support, ubiquity/availability, etc.

GNS is a bunch of mechanics thinking about how engines work. Whether a given car sells well, looks good, has cache, is affordable, etc... these have little to do with the quality of the engine.
 

clearstream

(He, Him)
Strawman. I didn't say 5e was poor quality. I think the game design is mediocre quality. There are a variety of other factors in a product's quality and popularity including branding/IP, quality of art/graphic design, quality of writing, adventures/support, ubiquity/availability, etc.

GNS is a bunch of mechanics thinking about how engines work. Whether a given car sells well, looks good, has cache, is affordable, etc... these have little to do with the quality of the engine.
Quality is a vague term. I can say that 5e is a high quality engine, if that is our analogy, albeit when I say "quality" I might have something in mind that you do not.

As has been discussed, GNS is not a predictor of quality. For those for whom its agendas resonate, it can explain their relationship with 5e.

In a sense, each agenda is like a taste. I love pear! Does 5e taste of pear? No?! The error isn't in my distaste, it's in supposing that says something about the quality of 5e... rather than what I find appealing. (Peariness, in this case.)
 

I've told you. I've posted actual play examples. You haven't responded to them.
The issue we have is this. I ask what's the difference between A and B. You respond A has X, B doesn't. But to me it seems that B does have X (or at least can have,) so either I have misunderstood what you mean by X or you have misunderstood what B entails. And I'm trying to figure out which it is.

Put let's look at the example.
In my Prince Valiant game, in the course of 14 sessions, the PCs saved a noble family, settled a peasant revolt (prompted in part by the fact that the players helped a rich abbot against Robin Hood-types), founded an order (aided in part by the friendship with the abbot), formed a warband, left Britain to the mercy of Saxons while travelling across Europe, took control of a Duchy (with the aid of a different peasant revolt), received gifts from the Emperor in Constantinople, and are currently at war in Cyprus. The players are the ones who made the choices about who counts as a villain and who an ally; who is worthy of helping and who not; to convert the undead and lay their bones in a reliquary rather than try and destroy them; etc.

In basic structure it's standard scene-framed play. It's not as visceral as what (eg) @Campbell's preferred approach to character driven play, but neither is it as purely situation-driven as The Dying Earth defaults to. The situations combine generic tropes and themes of knight-errantry with particular elements that are likely to speak to or engage with the players' evinced concerns for their PCs.

In the context of my 3 points, (i) the players have changed the setting via their play of their PCs - a new order, new alliances with Constantinople, control of a Duchy (by way of marriage) and a gift from the King of France, etc; (ii) the players chose their PCs' dramatic needs - to found a warband, to save a PC's marriage, to convert rather than kill; (iii) the players chose their evaluative responses/judgements, expressed via their play of their PCs - sometimes loyal, sometimes expedient, sometimes merciful, generally not overly radical. There is no worldly nor any cosmological process that "judges" what count as right or wrong answers, or that tells them which peasants and bandits deserve sympathy and which are varlets. The players make their own calls, and play flows from that.

That is what relatively low-risk "story now" play looks like.

First. Knight-errantry type stuff in medieval Europe (perhaps inspired by actual Prince Valiant comics and other fiction of similar genre) seems to be the premise. I would assume that this at least implicitly informs the things the players declare their characters will do. A thing you insisted is a hallmark of a non-story-now game. So I'm puzzled.

Second. Apart the use of the actual historical setting instead of a fantasy one, absolutely nothing in this would be out of place as a description of someone's D&D game. (Or Exalted game, or indeed most games.) It seems like a blast. Exactly the sort of thing I mean when I talked about having characters with motivation to do stuff and GM who lets them.

Now if we zoomed in more we might see actual differences. Like how and why were the personality and the motives of the Byzantine Emperor decided? How was it decided that there even are some Robin Hoody bandits, or what's going on at Cyprus? But overall it seems just like a normal character driven play in an established setting that can and does take place in most games.

Here is an example of higher risk "story now" play, from a single session of Burning Wheel (I was the player):

In terms of my three points, (i) I changed the setting - Xanthippe is ready to join with Thurgon in liberating Auxol, (ii) I chose Thurgon's dramatic needs (around his family and his heritage) and I chose Aramina's dramatic needs (around her self-doubts, her resulting cynicism, and her relationship with Thurgon), and (iii) I chose the responses - to Rufus, to Xanthippe, and in Aramina's case to the miracle. There was no system imperative or GM imperative establishing right or wrong choices or attitudes, or predetermining how the interactions between the various characters would go.
I see more marked differences in this example, but I'm afraid properly contextualising them would require greater familiarity with the Burning Wheel system. (Which I used to know, but have forgotten most, and I'm not going to refamiliarise myself for the sake of this conversation.) The differences I note seem mostly be related to how certain decision that would in other styles would be made by the GM (and even some by the player) are offloaded to the system, and that the player seems to be able to use the system to 'compel' certain things to be decided and defined.

This is what "story now" play looks like, for me at least. The players are in the driving seat; the GM frames and facilitates. That faciliation includes presenting the players with circumstances that require their PCs to make value-laden choices. And there are not "right answers" - as I quoted from Vincent Baker (DitV) upthread, I think in reply to you, the GM does not "play god" or impose their own judgements. Play results from the cycle of framing, choice, action and consequence which in turn leads to new framing built upon those consequences.

If you are playing 5e D&D in this sort of fashion, you could tell us about it!

I'm not claiming my style is fully character driven. It is not, as that is not my preference, but it is an amalgam of that and preplanned elements. The characters are free to roam the world, there is stuff that is happening in the world independent of them. Some situations they encounter may be be such that they're likely to elicit rather expected response, (so more plothooky, you might say) some are just stuff that's going on and there is no expected response. ("expected" here only in a sense that I anticipate what is likely, not in any prescriptive sense.) And of course the players are perfectly free to come up with their own goals. In the last game when they were looking for spell components they needed at a bazaar, the rogue decided to look for people who seemed wealthy. Then they gathered some info on these rich folks from the locals, including where they live. It seems quite possible that in next session some burglary will ensue.

And this is small scale stuff, but they're low level. And I fully intend to embrace the concept of 'from zero to hero' and should they survive to become powerful mythic heroes (probably 'heroes more in ancient Greek sense than in modern sense; no morality implied) then their ability to exert their will to the world should match. If they want to bring down nations or become a Sorcerer-King, then by all means! Being epic should be about more than fighting bigger monsters with bigger numbers in their statblock (though that's fun too!)

And I'm tired of fighting over semantics and definitions, but some people have accused me of denying their playstyle. But I rather feel it is this sort of binary all or nothing attitude where there is only perfect story now or some railroady AP is denying the existence of certain playstyles. It is not how thigs are in the reality, and insisting on it doesn't make discussing what people actually do or like any easier. I don't like adventure paths, but the certain common Story Now mechanics and practices rub me the wrong way too. What I like could be characterised laying somewhere in the middle, at least from certain point of view. And it is a real thing.
 


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