D&D General Supposing D&D is gamist, what does that mean?

OK, because the rules in 1e are pretty extensive and tie into a lot of stuff that is part of the game 'at large' I may not elaborate on every single bit, but I can certainly give you the nickle tour:

PHB contains the fundamental movement and light rules, these lay out what movement rates mean, what constitutes encumbrance (there are 4 levels of encumbrance, 5 I guess if you count 'cannot move at all'). It also contains the rules for Surprise, vision, etc. (though the DMG has its own, which aren't perfectly concordant with these). Equipment and some associated rules are also present in this book. The basic rules for mapping are also here (there's not much). Obviously the spell lists and descriptions, and some of the spell-casting rules are also found here.

DMG obviously contains the 'meat' of things! The biggest part of the system is found starting on P47 'Adventures in the Outdoors' (the first subtopic of THE ADVENTURE). First it touches on the basic conceptual framework. "It is necessary to have a reasonably well-detailed, large scale map for conducting adventures outdoors." So this makes it clear that Outdoor adventures are a distinct type, but that they follow the 'map and key' framework also used in dungeons. It then goes on to describe them as a follow on to "those in the small community and nearby underground maze." So in this first paragraph we have the basic schema of how this fits into the game and the world described.

Next it describes world maps, which we are told should be a first priority and will have a scale of 20 to 40 miles per hexagon. It then describes 'smaller scale maps' as having 5 hexagons per large scale map hexagon, and describes how the two sizes would be arranged. It is then explained that there are FOUR subcategories of outdoor adventure, land adventures, adventures in the air, waterborne adventures, and underwater adventures. Presumably each of these shares the above considerations about mapping, though it says underwater is more dungeonlike in practice. I guess you could hexcrawl across the ocean however as far as the DMG is concerned (either on and/or below the surface)! lol.

From here we get the LAND ADVENTURES section, which covers a whole slew of topics. First we learn that the map needs to note population density, or at least give a general idea of it. Then we dive into 'Chance of Encounter', which tells us, for each type of terrain (plain, scrub, forest, desert, hills, mountains, and marsh) how often to roll for encounters, and for each density (relatively dense, moderate to sparse/patrolled, and uninhabited/wilderness) what the base chance is. From here we go into detailed procedures for how an encounter happens, encounter distance, what a confrontation (distance under 1") means, etc. Next we get a section on movement that basically just adds a rule for very large groups to the PHB rules. Then we have the 'Becoming Lost' topic, which contains a fairly elaborate procedure for determining if, when, and the effects of, getting lost. We also get a note that if you follow a 'proper map' you won't get lost (I assume this means the heavily annotated type normally produced by adventuring groups, not a treasure map). Rest and Forced Movement round out this section.

I won't go into the other types of outdoor adventures except to note they include VERY extensive rules for flying, watercraft (including an entire wargame of small ship combat), etc. Suffice it to say you should be well equipped to handle most situations! There are even rules covering most of the common spells and their off-label uses in these various types of adventure.

FInally there is an entire subchapter titled 'OUTDOOR MOVEMENT', which elaborates on and to a degree rewrites the PHB movement rules. It includes the uses of mounts, effects of terrain on movement, use of watercraft, and some other details.

So, the one thing we are missing here is anything talking about encounter tables. We know how to discover IF an encounter happened, and what to do about it, but we have no rosters of bad guys, or even a rule on how to structure a table, what sort of things should go on it, etc. But first we have a slight diversion:

Appendix B: RANDOM WILDERNESS TERRAIN - this is exactly what the label says on the tin. It includes an Inhabitation Table, used to determine what sort, if any, civilization exists in a hexagon when it is entered, noting that 1 out of 100 hexes will have a city of up to 60,000 population!!!! So, maybe its not quite wilderness after all, lol. Presumably this is all assumed to fall under the rubric that the DM will filter the results!

And now we have APPENDIX C: RANDOM MONSTER ENCOUNTERS - this details encounters for all types of terrain, dungeons, underwater, etc. and is QUITE extensive, including rules for NPC parties, patrols, generation of fortifications, covering various climates and degrees of inhabitation, etc. It also includes a CITY/TOWN encounters section. Lets just say that the rules are QUITE extensive and cover 20 pages of dense text and tables!

Appendix O recapitulates and expands on the encumbrance of various items. Appendix P covers building NPC parties (well, it talks about PCs, but its main use seems more like building full up NPC groups to run into in... THE WILDERNESS!) :)

Obviously AD&D also contains an entire BOOK, the Wilderness Survival Guide, which greatly expands on all of the above information, and comes in at a hefty 150 pages or more. I know it contains the 2nd (or maybe 3rd) iteration of the NWP skill system, but I really didn't read it much.

So, if we follow the rules in this book, then parties of some level, presumably at least 3rd-5th, can venture out into the wilds, and either experience a randomly generated or a fully mapped, hexcrawl. The rules above will provide for how the party moves, navigates, what it eats and drinks, what it can carry, and the sorts of things it will encounter. There's not a LOT on how to draw maps, nothing much about symbols and whatnot, but presumably all of this should be fairly self-evident and follow from the necessity to depict all of the stuff detailed above. Obviously the DM is encouraged to include fantastical elements, their own 'keyed' encounters (which are stated to displace any random ones) etc. This seems to be a complete system!

I'd observe that when you actually USE it, its hard to carry enough food, water, weapons, armor, and other equipment, and you have to make hard trade-offs between movement speed and being maximally well-equipped. There is also the disease rule, which adds another almost TB2 grind-like factor. Spell casting is well considered too, as the PCs will lack a ready supply of ingredients for many spells, books are fairly heavy and easily damaged, etc. You can only memorize a specific number of spell levels per rest too! Bunkering down in a camp is possible, but will eat up rations and subject the party to random encounters (which happen even if you sit still).

I really don't have time to cover the 5e equivalent right now, and this post is quite long, so I will look at that and contrast them in detail later.
OK, so what about 5e? What are the rules in 5e that would be applied to hexcrawl? Well, first of all, 5e has some basic structural similarity to 1e, in that it has a sort of 'task oriented' rules structure where you utilize subsystems which can handle provide inputs to the GM's story. The one big difference is that skill/ability checks exist, which were not part of core 1e (though if we use the WSG version of 1e we will add those). That means there's a fairly set default mechanism to setting any question where a PC is involved, a check. However, DCs are totally at the discretion of the GM, as is how much success or failure they represent in a general sense. Thus the rules for specific things tend to be 'mushier' than in 1e, where some very specific 'rule' may exist for just a given type of situation with specific types of dice, etc. Anyway, lets see what is in the books:

PHB Chapter 5 describes equipment, there's a pretty long list of 'stuff' here, and it all comes with a weight. Backpacks and such have a capacity. This is pretty much the same as AD&D, give or take a pound here or there (1e used 'GP' as the unit of weight measure).

PHB p176 gives us a rule for encumbrance, but here we run into some difficulty as there are TWO rules, and they differ fairly substantially. The default says you can carry 15xSTR (so an average human can carry 165lbs or so, which is kinda high). With this rule there's no degree of encumbrance, at 1lb over you presumably turn into a pumpkin and fall to the ground... If you use 'variant encumbrance' then 5xSTR or less pounds is fine, between 5x and 10x you are 'encumbered' and slow by 10', and over 10x you are heavily encumbered with a 20' movement penalty and disadvantage on physical checks. Presumably the 15x limit still applies as the uttermost max load. So, here we run into 5e's first issue, there's a lot of alternative rules and which ones you use makes a BIG difference. However, we can assume that the hexcrawl DM is invoking all the more detailed and generally harder to use versions.

Chapter 7 provides the basic rules for skill/ability check system. I'd note here that this system in its entirety is also technically optional, though my reading of things is that it is assumed to be in use and NOT using it is more of a 'variant'.

Chapter 8 is a general coverage of 'adventuring'. It notes that GMs usually use maps, discusses time, noting that wilderness adventures probably track it in hours, or perhaps days. Movement provides a set of rules based on 'travel pace' where the players can select fast, normal, or slow, with provisions for vehicles and mounts, as well as forced marching. Rules are then presented for moving stealthily, perceiving threats, etc. though most of these appear to be more 'notes', and I assume there are rules in the DMG covering the details (IE of surprise and encounter distance for example).

Chapter 8 also includes rules for light, vision, food and water, and the core resting rules (no variants are discussed here).

The DMG has an exploration subchapter which covers most of the stuff we would require: It talks about movement, giving some more detailed notes on how fast a character could ACTUALLY move, etc. but not contradicting what is in the PHB, though it suggests those rules are 'simplified'. There are some 'notes' on visibility and 'noticing other creatures', but no definite rules or procedure are given for things like encounter distance or surprise. A rule is given for tracking. Then there's a fairly general set of reaction rules that basically just notes some possible DCs and outcomes that might be applied to say parleys and such. The DM facing combat rules come next, and then we get into 'Chases', which could overlap into wilderness type movement, and there's a table of 'chase complications' that could be handy. Then there are some misc rules/notes about things like sieges and disease, but no real rules per se on that subject.

The DMG also has an 'Adventure Environments' subchapter, and within this are some sections on Wilderness. There is a section about the 'hour by hour approach', but it doesn't really give any meat, just noting that this might sometimes be appropriate, etc. In general it seems geared more towards a 'skip the boring parts and just go to the encounters' approach. A section covers 'Mapping a Wilderness', but has even less to say than 1e about how such a map is constituted, hexagons and scales apparently are covered in another place entirely. Movement is just noted to be assumed to happen on a 1hex/mile scale. Beyond that there are some notes and a couple tables relating to weird features, and some notes that settlements and castles probably exist (but no details). We then get rules for 'Wilderness Survival' which are somewhat more complete than other sections. A weather table is presented, though not with any real rules for how or when to use it (once a day seems to be the suggestion). Various hazards are noted, with some basic rules text for some of them. Then there's a section on foraging, one on food and water, and one on becoming lost.

Finally I'd note that there is next a section on Settlements, which has generator tables that could feed into the above hexcrawl mechanics, though that isn't really spelled out. It would definitely be a logical use for them.

DMG also has a general world design chapter, and here we find some more detailed explanation of how to make maps that would presumably be used in a hexcrawl. It notes 3 map scales 1 mile hexes (province scale), 6 mile hexes (kingdom scale), and 60 mile hexes (continent scale). That's about all that is relevant here, though there are more discussions about what might be on these maps in terms of civilization mostly. So, here we get the notion of hex maps and scales, though nothing really tells us which scale is good for hexcrawl (I'll assume the smallest one, province scale, probably is the best, but you could presumably get by with the kingdom scale maps in a pinch, or just zoom in as needed.
 

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Comparison of 1e and 5e in hexcrawl terms:

1e has pretty detailed procedural rules, which I would call actual RULES, they tell you 'do this' or 'do that'. There's a good bit of advice and 1e CLEARLY thinks the DM is going to filter all this to a degree, but you can basically run a hexcrawl virtually entirely with the dice. There are a few minor gaps and places where stuff is not fully explained in terms of procedure, but the core 'loop' of exploration is VERY clear. I could drop a party onto a blank hex map and the DMG will take me entirely through tables that will generate the terrain, tell us how and when to check for encounters, and presents tables that we can use to generate those encounters, as well as definite rules for encounter distance, surprise, reactions, negotiation, etc. Its rules on things like encumbrance and movement seem (and I can confirm this from experience) to be fairly well-calculated to generate hard choices and force the players to deal with the environment and situation. If a story were to emerge from this process, it will be purely constituted of tales of encounters, discovery of settlements and camps/forts, and the various actions taken to secure food, shelter, and equipment. The gist of any agenda, as far as the rules are concerned would be either clearing out an area, or passing through it and probably mapping it.

It isn't easy to say exactly what rules are constitutive of the 'hexcrawl' vs other stuff, but there are AT LEAST 30 pages of rules in 1e that are primarily concerned with this kind of exploration, maybe 60 pages if you take a bit of a broader view.

5e has certainly got 10's of pages, maybe even as much as 1e that could be related to hexcrawls, but it is much less easy to say. Most of what is in 5e is more in terms of suggestions, and usually is in terms of how a DM can place their desired story elements within the context of a wilderness. There are a few tables here and there, and a fair number of places where a check is noted, etc. but overall how, when, and where these things are employed is much less specified in 5e, and usually talks about 'story' vs a kind of mechanical process with a defined structure.

On the whole I would say that both systems require some kinds of specific DM input to instantiate a crawl, but 1e is much more definite about what the process is and how to go about it. The biggest thing you need to establish in 1e is the general character of the wilderness, what is its population density, what is the climate, and what kind of terrain is present (but you can generate that). The DM is then obviously free to add whatever else, like keyed encounters, but wouldn't absolutely have to do so.

5e's 'system' isn't really that much of a system, it wouldn't be possible to simply start with a blank map. There is, for one thing, a strong presupposition that there is a 'story' behind all the activity. There simply aren't detailed generators for most things, and the rules don't really establish, for instance, a 'core loop' of movement, rest, and encounter checks. All these things are individually discussed, but there isn't really a 'top level' to it, which 1e has (and starts with).

Also I can't judge if 5e's rules would really all work together to produce the sort of 'hard journey' story that seems to be embedded in the 1e rules. PCs can carry a lot of stuff, and I'm not clear on whether the rules really bring out a logistical challenge, or if that is even intended. Perhaps you can kind of get to the place 1e is at without actually rewriting anything in 5e, but I think you'd need another 10 pages of 'glue'.

And none of this is covering other points, like magic. 5e Wizards and Clerics have a LOT of unlimited or easily accessed magic, and not so many casting restrictions and difficulties as a 1e caster would face in the wilderness. So, presumably even 1-3rd level 5e PC casters are going to be HIGHLY useful, and continue so. I'd note that even 1e does have druids and clerics that are somewhat less restricted than wizards, and can help a lot with logistics. Still, they can only cast memorized spells! At higher levels (maybe 9th and above) this will perhaps start to undermine the 1e resource stuff, but at that point the DM is fully justified in sending the party to another plane, or something like that anyway! 1e also has less issues with resource recovery. Fighters effectively (if you have some cleric and healing magic) are at about the same daily rate as wizards. However, with encounters being 1 or 2 per day in most cases this probably won't get to be a problem, unless the PCs get into a more involved 'mini-adventure' perhaps.
 

Thanks for posting these comparisons. Something I’ve noticed is it seems like the two procedures have different goals. The one from B/X has a very strong, gameplay-focused loop. The 5e one seems more oriented towards providing a hex-crawling experience without risking the story too much. That’s particularly evident in the citations shared by @Campbell regarding random encounters and when the GM should exercise judgement with them.

This isn’t a commentary on whether one is better than the other. I think which rules are more useful is going to depend on the kind of experience the GM is trying to create in play. For me at least, I think the B/X rules would be a much better fit than the 5e ones because the experience of a story (or telling one) isn’t one I’m trying to create. I’m more interested in having a process that supports, e.g., hexcrawling, that we can follow to see what happens.
Yeah, while I don't have any 5e modules, and thus cannot comment on what is them, my review of the core rules in 5e which would be used in a hexcrawl type scenario bear this out heavily. Every paragraph 5e expounds about story issues and what the GM's goals are in terms of asking for certain types of checks and such. This is profoundly at odds with 1e or B/X where the rules are simply presented as a mechanical structure. Certainly classic D&D expected the GM to adapt, alter, extend, and filter the results of what the rules present, but the expectation was that the process of the hexcrawl was largely a game process, not a 'story' process, and that GM input into it would be intended to either A) improve its suitability to a specific set of campaign conditions, or B) interject some specific non-random 'keyed' elements into the process. I guess a C) 'do it better than Gary/Tim' agenda might also exist, but that seems kind of irrelevant when talking about rules and games in the abstract.
 


Campbell

Relaxed Intensity
Disregarding the instructions provided (which I would not) the hex crawl procedures in 5e are not well suited to Step On Up style hexcrawls because they introduce a bunch of variables that cannot be meaningfully accounted for that are not there to provide challenge or dynamism, but are primarily intended to make the setting feel like a real place. That makes them much better suited for play focused on exploration for its own sake, but far less suited for B/X style hexcrawls. Part and parcel of this is the check to get randomly lost that is not influenced by gameplay decision making at all.
 

Thanks! In my books the Land Adventures and Outdoor Movement rules are contained on pages 47 and 49 (48 is a full page image.) Can you find a step-by-step procedure?
DMG p47 contains the 'core loop', though Gygax doesn't quite put it that way. Basically the table on the bottom of p47 establishes the frequency of encounter checks and the text states that the PCs move from hex to hex and these checks are made (with pop density determining the size of die to use). The paragraphs on p49 describe other factors, the process for resolving encounter distance/surprise, and some movement options. So, 'step-by-step' is the PCs decide which square to move into, or they decide to camp, and then an encounter check is made (possibly more than one, depending on the hex scale and the movement rate of the party, or I guess they might move more than one square before needing to check). There is then also presumably a check for getting lost, this is covered in that section. So, unlike B/X, 1e doesn't explicitly call out each element as "this is the loop." This is typical of Gygax game text, he is very bad at being explicit, but there's really no great ambiguity here, there IS a system, you just have to read the whole of 2 pages and remember a couple things to know what it is (and its a quite simple system, really). I'd note that making disease checks and docking party supplies are also implicit elements of this loop, though they are not covered in this one section. I'd also note that presumably morale/loyalty/obedience MIGHT also factor in, but exactly how or when would have to be decided by the DM.
 

Thomas Shey

Legend
Or that you could wander around for hours of play time in a hexcrawl and find nothing but the occasional wandering monster.

Yes. Honestly, its a different version of the same concept; that things did not need to be "interesting" all the time, and in fact being so was a sign there was a thumb on the scale (and to those GDS Simulationists, often immersion-breaking).
 

Thomas Shey

Legend
Disregarding the instructions provided (which I would not) the hex crawl procedures in 5e are not well suited to Step On Up style hexcrawls because they introduce a bunch of variables that cannot be meaningfully accounted for that are not there to provide challenge or dynamism, but are primarily intended to make the setting feel like a real place. That makes them much better suited for play focused on exploration for its own sake, but far less suited for B/X style hexcrawls. Part and parcel of this is the check to get randomly lost that is not influenced by gameplay decision making at all.

Well, one can argue that if that sort of thing is a problem, almost any die roll is. After all, a die roll can often make your decision-making moot. The most you can do in most games is put your thumb on the scale of difficulty.
 

kenada

Legend
Supporter
Well, one can argue that if that sort of thing is a problem, almost any die roll is. After all, a die roll can often make your decision-making moot. The most you can do in most games is put your thumb on the scale of difficulty.
I think the problem @Campbell is describing is that B/X allows the roll to be avoided, e.g., by following a river, while ToA mandates it be made no matter what. That’s OSR-style skilled play in B/X (i.e., gamism).

D&D Basic Set X56 said:
Becoming Lost
When travelling, a party can become lost. A party following a road, trail, or river, or led by a reliable guide, will not become lost. Otherise, the DM checks each day, rolling a six-sided die (1d6) before the party begins movement. The DM then checks the chance of becoming lost of the appropriate terrain. If the number rolled is the same as those listed, the party is lost.

Tome of Annihilation Chapter 2 : Navigation said:
At the start of each new travel day, the DM makes a Wisdom (Survival) check on behalf of the navigator. The result of the check determines whether or not the party becomes lost over the course of the day. The DC of the check is based on the day’s most common terrain: DC 10 for coasts and lakes, or DC 15 for jungles, mountains, rivers, swamps, and wastelands. Apply a +5 bonus to the check if the group sets a slow pace for the day, or a –5 penalty if the group is moving at a fast pace. It’s possible to get lost on a river by following a tributary instead of the main branch.
 

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