D&D General Supposing D&D is gamist, what does that mean?

Excellent post, albeit stopping just short of the key question - in what ways is gamism appealing or valuable?

If D&D is gamist, how does that contribute to its success? What are the advantages of gamism? How is being gamist important and valuable to D&D players?
I think that notions of gamism v simulationism is at the heart of the controversy that flows from each edition change.

Early D&D is designed for wargamers. In a lot of ways it is a wargame. The game's core premise involves managing time and resources and playing 'smart' to overcome obtacles and get the treasure in a hostile environment. To some extent even engaging with the combat rules at all (instead of flooding the dungeon or whatever) is a failure state. The purpose of play is to use your character as an avatar to 'beat' the dungeon (and the GM) and emerge unscathed.

By late 1st edition and 2nd edition the game has gotten very popular and its core demographic wants something different. They want a feel of playing in an epic fantasy story like Lord if the Rings, or perhaps a computer game. The game's high lethality rate is toned down (mostly by an encouragement for the GM to fudge 'inappropriate' results. Explicitly challenge- based mechanics like GP=XP are removed because they 'don't make sense'. We get skill rules, detailed game worlds, notes about the culture and habitats of each monster, and kits to give characters special rules reflecting their background or specialisation. The purpose of play is to be the third dude from the left in a LotR knock-off and to do what he would do.

Third edition represents an attempt to further head towards simulationism and 'make things make sense' by unifying the class levels, unifying thief abilities etc into the skill system, and providing mechanical representation for all sorts of trips and manoeuvres, item manufacture, monster skills, character options, prestige classes within the world, etc. However, this is married to a deluge of exception-based character options designed to allow you to 'build' a powerful character and thus overcome the game's challenges through player skill. There are even deliberately underpowered 'trap' options in the feat list for canny players to avoid. 3e is thus much less coherent than previous editions, it is simply trying to achieve two contradictory aims at once. Is play about challenge, or about exploration and verisimilitude? Should I build my character to be the most effective, or the most interesting and setting-appropriate? You can see that this dichotomy was what broke the 3e playtesting, with WotC by all accounts running the new game under the old assumptions and therefore missing the reality of how things actually work. In the real world playgroups adapt to this incoherence by either outright shifting back to challenge-based play as driven by the new rules, or by trying to ignore the parts of the rules that drive things that way through a mixture of fudging and selective cultivation accompanied by admonitions not to be a munchkin or a power-gamer.

Cue 4th edition. 4th edition says look, you all clearly want the challenge-based game the previous rules tried to provide, so let's provide lots more structure on what a fair encounter looks like, give you lots of cool AND BALANCED options and manoeuvres to choose from, and get rid of the OP spells, restrictions, and assumptions ('baggage') that was getting in the way. Let's also be really crystal clear about what we're trying to do and give you unambiguous advice about how to make this game sing. Verisimilitude can go f itself, right? This is just a game.

Cue shock and outrage from half of the audience. Cue also genuine fun and excitement from the other half of the audience - at last, a D&D that lived up to the experience it had always promised!

Cue 5th edition. As the market leader we can't afford to lose half of our audience, even if the other half is having the time of their lives. We need to soften the directness of the rules, throw a lot more ambiguity into our language and GM advice, and add back in all the old assumptions, trappings, and inconsistencies as clearly these are the things people like about D&D. We need to appeal to the widest-possible audience again by making our game sort-of palatable to both sides. We'll even play some vague lip service to narrativist ideas by putting in some stuff about player goals, inspiration, etc.

And there you go, most successful edition ever, just enough of each agenda to satisfy both sides (but delight neither). I think that commercially-speaking GNS-incoherence is probably the correct course of action for WotC, as much as it disappoints me from a game design point if view. As the market leader they want to appeal to the widest audience possible, and as the genre prototype, with an extant history of incoherence and ambiguity, your audience is already pre-disposed to selectively ignoring and interpreting your books to get what they want. 'Of course you have to fudge, how else can you keep the characters alive until the climax of my pre-planned story!'

I think the maths on this is very different for non-D&D games, which are already reactions to D&D in different directions and are therefore chosen (or will be chosen) based on how well they 'fix' D&D's 'flaws' and move strongly in any given direction and towards a particular creative agenda.
 

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Excellent post, albeit stopping just short of the key question - in what ways is gamism appealing or valuable?
Because trying, gambling, winning - those are all fun! People do them all the time in all sorts of spheres of life. Why not in relation to imagined challenges that are overcome by manipulating imagined characters in accordance with rules and expectations? It's the same appeal as wargaming, but with richer fiction and more vibrant personalties!

There might be more to said than my previous paragraph, but I think the previous paragraph is saying something useful.

If D&D is gamist, how does that contribute to its success? What are the advantages of gamism?
Do you mean commercial success and commercial advantages? The commercial advantage of being oriented at step-on-up via ingame challenge, with the possibility of a subtle interplay of cooperation (among players and their PCs) and competition (between players and GM, and sometimes between players and/or their PCs), is that it is an appealing package. I think lasertag and paintball would not be so commercially successful if the goal wasn't to beat opponents but only to (say) mark out a pretty picture with one's laser or one's paint pellets.

I think the tropes that accompany and support the ingame/in-fiction challenge aspect of D&D are also appealing: adventure, including with a military or "special ops" flavour, is pretty popular, and the D&D tropes that support gamist play fit within that genre.

One could imagine a gamist RPG set in the Ancien Regime French court, but its tropes would I think have less appeal: I remember a film around 20 years ago called Ridicule (OK, I just Googled and it's about 25 years ago), but social competition in the French court does not seem to have attained the same popularity as movies that involve guns, fisticuffs, and the risks of falling from great heights.

How is being gamist important and valuable to D&D players?
That's something for D&D players to answer. I can only answer for myself: I ran a session of White Plume Mountain a couple of months ago, and what was valuable seemed to be working out the puzzles, and how to avoid getting paralysed by the ghouls at the other end of the heat induction tube. In the combat with the ghouls there was also the fun of dice rolls.

It's a different sort of puzzle from solving a crossword, or even from an escape room.

In Edwards' terms it was low competition both between players and between PCs. But there was a degree of competition between the players and the GM, insofar as I - the GM - was "channelling" the module and bound by it (in Edwards' terms, there was " a rules-set that limits GM options" - that ruleset being AD&D and the binding character of prep). The payoff was basically bragging rights within the social group, similar to the payoff for social play of (say) MtG or a competitive boardgame.
 

Cue 4th edition. 4th edition says look, you all clearly want the challenge-based game the previous rules tried to provide, so let's provide lots more structure on what a fair encounter looks like, give you lots of cool AND BALANCED options and manoeuvres to choose from, and get rid of the OP spells, restrictions, and assumptions ('baggage') that was getting in the way. Let's also be really crystal clear about what we're trying to do and give you unambiguous advice about how to make this game sing. Verisimilitude can go f itself, right? This is just a game.

Cue shock and outrage from half of the audience. Cue also genuine fun and excitement from the other half of the audience - at last, a D&D that lived up to the experience it had always promised!
4e also illustrates the possibility, that Edwards talked about and that I mentioned upthread, of convergence of gamist/step-on-up and narrativist/story-now in respect of techniques.

The same things that you point to about 4e - encounter-based play, balance across PC build options, letting go the simulationist trappings - are what made it a vehicle for light/low-stakes narrativist play that has often been talked about on these boards. Like Burning Wheel and HeroWars/Quest and Maelstrom Storytelling - all unequivocally narrativist RPGs - it is scene-based. Because PCs are balanced, the GM does not have to curate the action to make the game work, so everyone can play to find out. PCs can use their cool abilities not just to "win" in a gamist sense but to express their protagonism. And the setting is cleaned up into its best version of itself, with all the thematic conflict but no predetermined answers that will support a setting-oriented (rather than character-oriented) story now agenda.

Naturally those who value the proximity of "traditional" D&D to the thin line between gamism and PCs-face-problems/challenges-simulationism went ape! Because 4e D&D is nowhere near that line.

Here is something I posted back in Feb 2011, in a thread about why 4e was not so popular:

I can only assume that WotC thought that there were many players like my group, who want a crunchier/more tactical play experience than a game like HeroQuest is going to deliver (half of us are ex-Rolemaster, after all) but who also were looking for a much less simulationist approach to world design, scenario design, scene framing, and action resolution.

So it's not just that they agreed with Ron Edwards, but also that they thought that the players who would flock to a narrativist-leaning game would be drawn from the ranks of those who love Runequest, Rolemaster and collectable card games.

And OK, when I put it that way, it looks like a pretty implausible hypothesis from the start!
 

4e also illustrates the possibility, that Edwards talked about and that I mentioned upthread, of convergence of gamist/step-on-up and narrativist/story-now in respect of techniques.

The same things that you point to about 4e - encounter-based play, balance across PC build options, letting go the simulationist trappings - are what made it a vehicle for light/low-stakes narrativist play that has often been talked about on these boards. Like Burning Wheel and HeroWars/Quest and Maelstrom Storytelling - all unequivocally narrativist RPGs - it is scene-based. Because PCs are balanced, the GM does not have to curate the action to make the game work, so everyone can play to find out. PCs can use their cool abilities not just to "win" in a gamist sense but to express their protagonism. And the setting is cleaned up into its best version of itself, with all the thematic conflict but no predetermined answers that will support a setting-oriented (rather than character-oriented) story now agenda.

Naturally those who value the proximity of "traditional" D&D to the thin line between gamism and PCs-face-problems/challenges-simulationism went ape! Because 4e D&D is nowhere near that line.

Here is something I posted back in Feb 2011, in a thread about why 4e was not so popular:
I agree with this. My group has some experience with narrativist games like HeroQuest and Other Worlds and that definitely helped us play out some fun skill challenges. We had kind of a muscle memory of how these things are supposed to work that transcended the (largely inadequate) explanations in the text.
 

Excellent post, albeit stopping just short of the key question - in what ways is gamism appealing or valuable?

If D&D is gamist, how does that contribute to its success? What are the advantages of gamism? How is being gamist important and valuable to D&D players?

That’s actually a fairly easy question to answer.

Gamist games are the most familiar form games can take. We all play games from a very young age and the loop of learning the game, getting good at the game and then being able to be very good at that game is incredibly rewarding.

I mean Magic the Gathering doesn’t absolutely dwarf DnD for no reason. The most successful video games are all very heavily gamest.

So DnD being strongly gamist should surprise no one. Heck look at the history of supplements. The best selling supplements are the ones that give you new tools to meet challenges with - new classes, feats, spells etc.

Of course dnd leans hard on gamism. It’s no different than most games. Strong skeleton of gamism with a bit of sim layered on top.
 

I agree with this. My group has some experience with narrativist games like HeroQuest and Other Worlds and that definitely helped us play out some fun skill challenges. We had kind of a muscle memory of how these things are supposed to work that transcended the (largely inadequate) explanations in the text.
I hadn't (and haven't) played HeroWars/Quest, but used the advice from that system, from Maelstrom Storytelling, and from Burning Wheel to run 4e skill challenges. I agree that the text didn't do a very good job. I think it can be reconstructed into something useful, but only if you already know - in general terms, at least - what to look for.
 

I hadn't (and haven't) played HeroWars/Quest, but used the advice from that system, from Maelstrom Storytelling, and from Burning Wheel to run 4e skill challenges. I agree that the text didn't do a very good job. I think it can be reconstructed into something useful, but only if you already know - in general terms, at least - what to look for.
It strikes me as similar to how inspiration and goals/beliefs are implemented in 5e - as though someone had flipped through an indie RPG book in a shop, found a cool idea, and implemented a half-remembered superficial version of it without ever really playing the original or understanding why it works. I don't think it's cynical, I think it comes from a genuine sense of 'wow, cool!', but it is lazy and poorly thought-out. It's a pastiche, to use a very Ron Edwards word.
 

Does anyone disagree that D&D play is mostly oriented on cooperatively overcoming challenges? That most of its mechanical tools are provided to help players work together to overcome challenges? Is it really that contentious? Is this really about not liking the way this is framed?
It certainly has that aspect and a lot of rules that support that style of play. But I'm not sure that this is the main draw for a lot of people and the edition that went all-in on that approach got pretty soundly rejected. To a lot of people experiencing the fantasy world, immersing to their characters and expressing them via interaction, having dramatic moments and plot twists is a big part of the appeal.

And sure, you can say, but surely there are games that focus on that and offer better rules support for such style of play? And there are. But I feel that is the fallacy these theoretical models sometimes create. That there are these clear goals and that you can create a pure system via which the goal can be actualised perfectly, and (and this is the biggest error) that the players just care about one goal. I'd say that to overwhelming majority of people this is not true. They do not have just one single thing that they want out of RPGs, they want a buffet, and thus they don't find a game that focuses on one goal to exclusion of others appealing.
 

It certainly has that aspect and a lot of rules that support that style of play. But I'm not sure that this is the main draw for a lot of people and the edition that went all-in on that approach got pretty soundly rejected. To a lot of people experiencing the fantasy world, immersing to their characters and expressing them via interaction, having dramatic moments and plot twists is a big part of the appeal.

And sure, you can say, but surely there are games that focus on that and offer better rules support for such style of play? And there are. But I feel that is the fallacy these theoretical models sometimes create. That there are these clear goals and that you can create a pure system via which the goal can be actualised perfectly, and (and this is the biggest error) that the players just care about one goal. I'd say that to overwhelming majority of people this is not true. They do not have just one single thing that they want out of RPGs, they want a buffet, and thus they don't find a game that focuses on one goal to exclusion of others appealing.
To a large extent GNS is predicated on the basis of individual meals. I go to an Italian restaurant when I want good pasta, but a steakhouse when I want a good steak. I enjoy both, but individually. I don't want any tomato sauce on my steak and I don't want any onion rings piled next to my fusilli. So it's not so much that players are narrativists or gamists or simulationists, and therefore exclusively prefer that kind of food, it's that on this occasion we're playing 4e so I'm going to play it in that challenge-based style and draw that kind if fun from it. Tomorrow we'll play Vampire and I'll focus my energies on exploring that setting and representing my character's inner trauma.

D&D in many ways is antithetical to this because for a lot of its fans it really is the only game they play. It kind of has to be the universal buffet that everyone can eat at least something from, but doesn't necessarily love.

Note that I don't think this is why D&D is the market leader. It's simply a sensible adaptation to make once you have become the market leader and de facto ur-example of the whole genre so as to ensure maximum profitability. Early D&D was much more focused in gamism, and other RPGs that try to also have a universal/abashed playstyle don't tend to exactly give D&D much cause for concern. D&D's nearest competitors are all either much more focused, or nearly as old, or both.
 

D&D's nearest competitors are all either much more focused, or nearly as old, or both.
Or they're quite literally "we're still D&D, we just have to call ourselves a different name for legal reasons. But we're the real D&D, we promise."

Though PF2e definitely stepped away from that niche (thankfully; the 3rd edition ruleset, even with the PF1e modifications, was already a broken nightmare of a system and I'm honestly surprised they got a full decade out of it before throwing up their hands.)
 

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