D&D General Supposing D&D is gamist, what does that mean?

pemerton

Legend
Could 5e be played as story-now?
Yes. I played "story now" AD&D in the second half of the 80s. I've used RM for "story now" play.

From Edwards' story now essay:

Vanilla Narrativism: Narrativist play without notable use of the following techniques
Director Stance, atypical distribution of GM tasks, verbalizing the Premise in abstract terms, overt rules concerning narration, and improvised additions to the setting or situations. People who typically play in this fashion often fail to recognize themselves as Narrativists.​

And also this:

"Vanilla Narrativism" is very easy and straightforward. The key to finding it is to stop reinforcing Simulationist approaches to play. Many role-players, identified by Jesse Burneko as "Simulationist-by-habit," exhaust themselves by seeking El Dorado, racing ever faster and farther, when all they have to do is stop running, turn around, and find Vanilla Narrativism right in their grasp.​

I also would expect someone playing "story now" 5e to encounter the same issues that someone playing "story now" Rolemaster or AD&D would, namely, that there are aspects of the system that (by default) encourage/reinforce simulationist or gamist approaches to play: eg the recovery rules push in one or the other direction (simulationist if the table emphasises the flow of ingame time, the "living, breathing" world aspect that is typically recommended as a response to Tin Huts, etc; gamist if the table emphasises the resource recovery aspect and intraparty balance, etc).

Incoherence is only an issue with incompatible agendas. Torchbearer arguably does both Step On Up and Story Now (I’ve found myself pursuing both agendas — though not at the same time). On the other hand, trying to do both Story Now and trad (High Concept) is not likely to work because the techniques of one will push you away from or undermine the other.
My view - admittedly on a reasonably thin evidence base - is that Torchbearer does have a degree of incoherence that generates some pressure towards drift in one or the other direction. I'm expecting (or hoping) to GM a fifth session (which would be the third for that campaign) reasonably soon, and am already tempted to introduce content that I suspect is "softballing" some of the system pressures from the skilled play perspective, in order to reinforce some of the "story now" elements.

As @Ovinomancer posted in one of these threads (may be the "D&D is not a simulation game" thread), the evidence for this sort of incoherence in core system elements generating drift in 5e play is very strong, given the typical threads and topics of discussion that recur in relation to it. The issues around recovery times, and Tiny Hut, that I've mentioned above are just the tip of that reasonably well-known iceberg.
 

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I would say one of the best ways to identify a game's agenda is the following formula:

1) What are the incentives/reward structures for "good play" by players?

2) What is the impetus for and shape of the GM's opposition to the players? Or is there really even opposition?

3) What is the nature of the procedures to get from incentive structure > GM opposition > reward?


I think if you cleanly evaluate those three things, they're going to tell you pretty much everything you need to know about the G about the S and about the N of the game that you're playing.

Just to keep this pithy and hopefully provide a decisive cleaving of the difference between Narrativist/Story Now games and a certain other type of approach to play that yields "story", here is a statement with respect to the above:

* If your answer in 2 is "there isn't really opposition...we're telling a story together" OR "the opposition is just neutral refereeing, exclusively to play a 'living/breathing world and the players can do whatever they want" OR "the players will inevitably win...I'm just here to curate play so that their winning highlights their preconception of character in the most awesome way possible" OR "my opposition is that of the constituent parts of a preconceived metaplot and a high resolution setting that they're touring while we move through the metaplot", OR any configuration thereof then you're not playing a Story Now/Narrativist game. Which is totally cool. There are a lot of ways to skin an RPG cat. It just means that the particular way you're skinning the cat isn't of the Story Now/Narrativist variety.

GMing a Narrativist/Story Now game requires (a) a crisp understanding of the nature of a brand of focused and intense opposition to the players (and this requires other aspects of system such as a certain sort of PC build + incentive structures as a rider), (b) an aggressive instantiation of that at all times, and (c) codified principles and procedures that ensure the whole thing works (works in this case meaning (i) player evinced dramatic needs/game's premise + (ii) honest, focused, and aggressive opposition by GM + (iii) resolution procedures that honors player's input by giving system its say and constraining focusing the GM's move-space + (iv) incentive structures that are coherent with (i - iii) ).
 
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pemerton

Legend
it's not that narrative mechanics "aren't engaging," but they're engaging in a very different and, generally, much more "cerebral"/"slow-burn" kind of way. It's hard to have impactful ethical choices without sufficient buildup. In games specifically built for "Narrative" play, this issue (if I'm understanding things correctly) is handled by, more or less, keeping everything focused "in the now," hence the "Story Now" label, and thus provides impact via keeping up the ongoing tension of the current moment. You're always under threat, or pushed to make a snap decision and have to live with the results, etc., which creates tension. Giving distributed narrative power, again if I'm understanding this correctly, is what makes sure the players aren't just feeling constantly tense with no ability to respond; they are subject to tension, but they have tools to respond to that tension.
On the last sentence: I don't know what you have in mind by giving distributed narrative power. But AD&D, as set out in Gygax's rulebooks, purports to distribute the power to change the content of the fiction across the participants. For instance, to give a very specific example: the player of a paladin whose PC reaches 4th level can call for a warhorse, making it part of the fiction that a warhorse (or, as per the DMG, the dream/vision of a warhorse) turns up. To give a more general example: the player of a MU, by casting a Tenser's Floating Disc spell, can make it part of the fiction that there is a floating disc under the PC's control that has such-and-such carrying capacity. And to give an utterly generic example: the player of any PC can, in circumstances where the GM has declared that there is a goblin in close proximity, can declare "I attack the goblin" and then, with a lucky series of rolls, make it part of the content of the fiction that the goblin is dead.

Conversely, an approach to RPG play in which players cannot change the content of the shared fiction seems degenerate, or at least borderline so, because what are the players doing then? All they seem to be doing is making suggestions to the GM, who actually authors the fiction. In which case how are the other participants playing a game at all?

What distinguishes "narrativist" or "story now" play is not any particular technique (see my post not far upthread mentioning "vanilla" narrativism) but the goal of play. Which is, broadly, to push players to declare actions for their PCs that exemplify, or articulate, some or other "point". In much the same way that many (but not all) stories (film, literature, theatre) have a "point". The GM's job is to open up the space for that to take place, generally by following signals sent by the players that provide information about what sort of "point" is interesting or salient to them. This might be done by giving the players control over some component of the shared fiction - eg a player who authors a family member into the shared fiction might be signalling that one "point" that is interesting to them is familial obligations. But it can be done other ways too: players can send signals via their action declarations, or just by saying stuff out-of-character.

I don't think narrativist play needs slow build up anymore than any other sort of play. Eg when I GMed a session of Wuthering Heights, the conflict was there pretty much from the start. The idea of using a "kicker" to start play - a typical narrativist technique - the player is (via their PC) propelled into protagonism, and again the choice and conflict may emerge relatively immediately.

Key to successful narrativist play, in my view, is neither distinctive technique, nor slow build, but not invalidating the choices the players make. And the typical approaches that (to use Edwards's phrase) reinforce simulationism and that therefore (to build on my own phrase) invalidate player choices, are rife in D&D play (and other RPGing too): alignment ("no evil PCs", "if your PC becomes evil they become a NPC"), treating gods as NPCs controlled by the player ("you're free to do whatever you want as a cleric or paladin, but I the GM will decide how your god reacts"), defeat if certain choices are made ("it's your fault if you split the party"), combinations of these techniques ("players can declare whatever actions they want, but the living breathing world will respond - eg by guards in undefeatable numbers turning up and running the PCs out of town"), etc.

Discussion of narrativist D&D, including narrativist 5e, has to talk about abandoning that suite of GM-side approaches - all of which are about reinforcing a preconception of what the "point" is - and looking for new ones. As @Campbell has mentioned, in this thread and many others, it also has to talk about abandoning player-side approaches that similarly reinforce such pre-conceptions (eg "my character would never do that").

Narrativism, again if I have understood it, can also be parsed as challenging things, but in an extremely different sense: challenging a person to make a decision, to fall on one side or another (or to fall away, having refused to decide, etc.) These are challenges to the values and beliefs of the character and/or player. But such challenges cannot be bested, generally speaking; one does not speak of having defeated anything by choosing to go with one's gut even when the evidence says otherwise, or the like. Instead, these are challenges that are simply responded to. One responds in some way (including the option of not responding, sometimes).
For a player to make a "point" via the play of their PC, there has to be the context for a point to be made. That can be framed as a challenge, but it can easily have a different "look" from typical D&D play. Does the player have their PC help their family member, or rescue the village from goblins? That's a decision that has to be made, and it may not be an easy one and hence is in that sense a challenge, but it's not the sort of challenge that is typically found in a D&D module - ie an obstacle to be overcome by the PC (or a group of PCs) which might earn XP.

This sort of example also can remind us of how many typical approaches to D&D shut down narrativist play, by reinforcing simulationism or (maybe a bit less typically) gamism. Eg the player, helping the family member rather than rescuing the village, doesn't earn XP. Or suffers alignment change which debilitates the player's play of their character. Or loses access to equipment which is (in D&D) often a crucial player-side resource. Or, etc.

To me, it seems that the real "challenge" of narrativist play is the same as the "challenge" of writing a story, or an essay, or a blog post; or of drawing a picture or making a film: some people might think that what you've written or drawn or filmed is silly or pointless or shallow or irresponsible or childish or sentimental or . . . There are innumerable ways in which, having set out to make a "point", or to respond to a "point", or to springboard off or reflect on a "point" someone else has made, one can fail or misfire or look like a fool.

Here's Edwards again:

The second, larger question is much like the Gamist one: why role-play for this purpose? Why this venue, and not some more widely-recognized medium like writing comics or novels or screenplays? Addressing Premise can be done in dozens, perhaps hundreds, of artistic media. To play Narrativist, you must be seizing role-playing, seeing some essential feature in the medium itself, which demands that Premise be addressed in this way for you and not another. What is that feature? If you can't see one, then maybe, just maybe, you are slumming in this hobby because you're afraid you can't hack it in a commercial artistic environment. Maybe you even hang with a primarily-Simulationist group, with the minimal levels of satisfaction to be gained among them, because it's safe there.

But let's say you do answer that question, and hold your head up as a Narrativist role-playing practitioner, addresser of Premise. Fine - now you have to ask yourself whether you can handle artistic rejection. That's right, no one might be interested in you. This is exactly what all aspiring directors, screenwriters, novelists, and other practitioners of narrative artistry face. In which case, you'll have to decide whether it's because your worthy vision is unappreciated and should seek new collaborators, or because your vision is simply lacking. It's not an easy thing to deal with.

But let's say that's all resolved too, and you are holding the brass ring: successful and fulfilling Narrativist play with a great bunch of fellow participants, fine and exciting content from your and the others' work, and the sense of worthy artistry. Now for the final conundrum: what will you sacrifice to sustain it? Maybe your spouse is tired of the time you spend on this; maybe you and a fellow group member get a little too close; maybe you decide your art would be even better if your best friend's sorry ass was no longer gumming up the group's work. Can you make those sorts of choices? Can you live with the results?

Good luck with it.​

That's deliberately provocative. In the same essay, he also writes this:

[N]ot everyone is necessarily a whiz at addressing Premise even when they try. If they were, we'd see a hell of a lot more great novels, comics, movies, and plays than we do. Signs of "hack Narrativism" include backing off from unexpected opportunities to address Premise or consistently swinging play into parody versions of the issues involved. I don't see any particular reason to bemoan or criticize this bit of dysfunction; all art forms have their Sunday practitioners.​

Obviously this understates the ways in which "Sunday practitioners" can produce bad or mediocre art. It also helps us appreciate why "Sunday narrativism" is more likely to involve low-stakes, not-particularly-revealing play (Prince Valiant or 4e D&D is good for this) rather than higher-stakes, more personally revealing play (Apocalypse World is clearly set up to invite this). But it also reminds us of an appeal of narrativist RPGing, like any other Sunday art creation: it might be bad, but it's mine! Or, in the case of RPGing, which is a group activity, it's ours!
 
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Here is a post below where I'm responding to @kenada (one of the players, along with @AbdulAlhazred and @niklinna , in a Torchbearer 2 game I run).

You don't have to understand all the various intricacies of system/agenda etc in this game. You merely need to know that it is a game with an extremely intensive Step On Up Priority (It also has some Story Now involved; I'm not going to go into all of that here...we can litigate that later if need be). You've got Adventure design that entails # of Obstacles + Factor of Obstacles (DC in D&D parlance) + things like Camp-sites (and related stuff there). Then you've got a seriously demanding Inventory system, a punishing Conflict system, all kinds of other systems/phases of play that integrate with that. Then you have a Fail Forward system of action resolution that generates Success + Condition/Twist (a Twist is a new obstacles that isn't encoded into the default # of obstacles in Short/Medium/Long Adventures).

What is weather doing in Journeys and in Wilderness Adventures (for instance, the Medium sized Adventure which features 10-12 Obstacles)? At first glance (and if you don't know the system), you might look at this question and at the exchange below and think "weather is clearly a Simulationism priority manifesting in play! I mean, it makes sense to have weather happen outdoors and have that be an input onto play; Simulationism for internal causality integrity and to allow for players to immerse within their characters and explore setting!"

No.

Weather is not Simulationism in Journeys nor Wilderness Adventures.

Its there as a Gamism input. Its there to add a layer to the very intricate decision-tree of players. Its there to complicate their Journey/Adventure "lives", to intersect with and complicate the Turn Structure (every 4 Turns, The Grind, everyone gets a Condition which "grinds you down"), to intersect with and complicate the Obstacle Rating space, to intersect with and complicate the consequence-space. It creates a myriad of inputs and foregrounds prospective outputs for every decision the players make collectively (or individually).

Its Gamism all day long. As an incidental outgrowth of this Gamism, the roll on the Weather Table and the resultant complicating (or not...sometimes it doesn't come up in a complicating way) realities might inject play with a bit of tacit Simulationism. But its not the point. And it may not land.

The fact that the Gamism is the point and the Gamism lands and that you can't say either about Simulationism lets you identify Weather as Gamism in Torchbearer 2 through and through.

Hmmmm…let me break out my thoughts on that sequence:

* Turns aren’t a static amount of time. They could be a moment, an hour, or even days of trekking. The consequential thing about Turns is that they are chunky moments of effort/resolution where a matrix/layered decision-points intersect to move play forward. In order for play to have perpetual teeth, this needs to be well GMed and well played.

* We have an opportunity (a cache) you guys want to explore in a wilderness environment prone to terrible weather. The effort to resolve this opportunity is, on its face, cumbersome in terms of effort and time (sawing through a thick sheet of ice in a frozen environment at great altitude and exposure).

Most courses of action include significant time so need to have a weather roll like Journey to determine if we have complicating factors/consequence space. However, there would be a few that aren’t time-intensive you might think of (eg deploying an alchemical bomb) that wouldn’t constitute a complicating weather roll but would constitute (a) a higher Ob by default and (b) a particular type of consequence-space on a “failure.”

* You guys decide to go with the safer, more likely to yield success move, but it brings in the volatility of the weather.

That volatility went “gong” in a big way (bringing increased factor and brutal consequence-space).

You can still make your test in the Thundersnow Storm, but you have to deal with the +1 Factor and worsened consequence-space. You would be assuming this risk in exchange for not having to spend a Turn to hunker down (and not make a test in a fictional positioning that warranted one; eg one where “cave in granite face” wasn’t established).




Ok, take the above.

Now imagine that the game didn’t require either/or/both (a) a Survivalist move + Turn to find a place to hunker down and wait out the storm to proceed with your plan or (b) hunkering down in the nearby already-established cave (no Survivalist test) but + Turn + dealing with whatever is in the cave.

If you don’t have the above, you entirely lose the teeth/consequential components of you guys’ collective OODA Loop and resolution (your weather roll). Skilled Play becomes irrelevant because the factors that are by default baked into your situation and the factors you brought in via your final decision-point (bringing in the volatility of the weather - with attendant prospects for factors and consequence-space - in exchange for a more efficacious move + less potent consequence-space) are rendered irrelevant (color).


Does that make sense?
 


What is weather doing in Journeys and in Wilderness Adventures (for instance, the Medium sized Adventure which features 10-12 Obstacles)? At first glance (and if you don't know the system), you might look at this question and at the exchange below and think "weather is clearly a Simulationism priority manifesting in play! I mean, it makes sense to have weather happen outdoors and have that be an input onto play; Simulationism for internal causality integrity and to allow for players to immerse within their characters and explore setting!"

No.

Weather is not Simulationism in Journeys nor Wilderness Adventures.

Its there as a Gamism input. Its there to add a layer to the very intricate decision-tree of players. Its there to complicate their Journey/Adventure "lives", to intersect with and complicate the Turn Structure (every 4 Turns, The Grind, everyone gets a Condition which "grinds you down"), to intersect with and complicate the Obstacle Rating space, to intersect with and complicate the consequence-space. It creates a myriad of inputs and foregrounds prospective outputs for every decision the players make collectively (or individually).

Its Gamism all day long. As an incidental outgrowth of this Gamism, the roll on the Weather Table and the resultant complicating (or not...sometimes it doesn't come up in a complicating way) realities might inject play with a bit of tacit Simulationism. But its not the point. And it may not land.

The fact that the Gamism is the point and the Gamism lands and that you can't say either about Simulationism lets you identify Weather as Gamism in Torchbearer 2 through and through.
Why the weather is not both? Why can it be just one? This whole idea that it must be one or other seems utterly bizarre and artificial to me. o_O

RPGs are shock full of rules that 1) serve gameplay purpose by providing appropriate challenge 2) simulate the reality of the fictional setting 3) evoke appropriate narrative tropes to which the characters may respond to. And they can do all these things the same time just fine. There is no conflict, you don't need to decide which of these three you're "really" doing. 🤷
 

The-Magic-Sword

Small Ball Archmage
Also, what measure are we using to find out if the simulationism lands? That seems like an unsupported assertion, or even an unsupportable one since it'll land differently for different audiences, especially if you have to be fluent in the system to understand its 'true' nature.
 

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