D&D General Supposing D&D is gamist, what does that mean?

Well, FKR is not an abstract theory. It's a style of play, style of game, and style of DMing.

Yeah. This is anecdotal, but I generally do not see Forgeist language used in by enthusiasts of trad or osr games as a means of reviewing, evaluating, or designing games or individual play sessions (I’m talking here of online boards like Reddit, discord, etc). That is, Call of Cthulhu players don’t evaluate a new supplement with regards to how simulation it is or not (much less how “participationist” it is); same with OSR/FKR players. Time to time someone will bring a theoretical term up, but I have not seen sustained discussions.

On the other hand, and again anecdotal, categorizing those games using, say, a GNS model, does appear to be really helpful for enthusiasts for story-now games. And that usefullness is a real thing obviously, but good to keep in mind that it’s not universal or even potentially universal (i.e. if a bunch of dnd players read about gameism some would agree and some would disagree, but I don’t know that the terms would ‘stick’ in how those players approached playing dnd).

Any field has theory. Maybe what’s notable about RPGs is that there is some kinds of knowledge and thought about games that explicitly marks itself out as Theory, and there are a lot of other implied theories of games and gaming that currently take the form of “advice” or folk understandings.

(Fwiw, since some are comparing Forge theory to theory in other fields, it strikes me as being similar to structural functionalism in mid century anthropology and sociology)
 

log in or register to remove this ad

Sounds rather limited and messy. So I take it DW is the Story Now game? Yeah, that's not for me. I like the lighter and more flexible rules. But RPGs aren't stories. Games that try to force emulating story structure or dramatic whatever are kinda dull to me as they typically utterly fail. Mostly because everyone playing is supposed to have agency.
Dungeon World is a Story Now game, yes. If you play it in its described form the GM and players first engage at a 'session zero', at which point no setting exists at all (obviously the genre implies the kinds of elements that will be present). Players generate PCs, and the GM helps flesh out their backgrounds and whatnot. The initial setting elements will fall out of this process, so we will learn SOMETHING about the world, but we will also have the PC's classes, races, alignments, bonds, and whatever other things they get to select, which along with whatever they may have told the GM, will present said GM with some dramatic needs to work with. The halfling wants to steal enough money to get his sister out of prison. The Paladin wants to help get justice for the Halfling. The Barbarian wants to find a mighty weapon to wield. Whatever. From these things the GM then defines several 'fronts', which are basically threatening plot elements. He can then describe dangers and portents related to these fronts, and build some sketch maps that perhaps describe generally where the bugbear horde hunting ground is, or whatever. At that point play starts, the GM frames a scene that puts pressure on the PCs and references at least some of their dramatic needs.
The game rewards, with XP, players playing to their bonds, their alignment, etc. It is all really rather simple and elegant. There are a set of agenda statements and techniques involved in play, and it works quite well. According to the authors, most of what the GM does is just "what GM's have always done." but just in light of a clear and well-articulated set of tools and techniques. It is a pretty rules-light game too, really. None of the rules/systems actually tells you what you can or cannot do or how to do it, instead it is all oriented towards simply determining whether or not whatever you DID describe as your character's actions moved you in the direction you wanted, or not (IE there are no actual 'combat' rules, but you can swing at an orc and there's a rule for determining if you came out on top when you did that, or not, or somewhere in between).
Sure. Could be. It all reads as philosophy written by people who don't understand philosophy.
It is all rather logical. 'Simulation' according to RE consists of a game agenda which aims at producing a certain type of results, that is of emulating something. So in a Supers game if the agenda is simulationist, then the agenda would be say simulating the types of action scenes and story structure which arise in superhero comics. It is possible for a Simulationist agenda to be something like "depict action which realistically emulates the kinds of events that happen to soldiers fighting in a modern war." or something like that, which could indeed involve a lot of careful modeling of realistic events. That is just not what is meant by Simulationism, that's all, it is much broader.
My understanding of Free Kriegsspiel Renaissance (FKR) is that it places primacy on the fictional world rather than the rules of any game system. That rules limit and restrict play rather than inform or aid play. Further, the heavier the rules the more they get between the players and the world. So, you remove as much of the rules as possible to get to only what you need. Typically something that fits on 3x5 card or a few short pages. Then, you engage with the world as if it were a real place and play your characters as if they were real people within that world.
What I'm saying is, an FKR is probably aiming to produce narrative/outcomes that are close to realistic. I mean, this is why it is generally enacted in a manner similar to a LARP (not always, but there's an element of live action to Kriegspiel). That is, the objective involves allowing the world to 'play itself'. However, it is not a given that the goal is actually this kind of realism. The goal could be to emulate an emergency management team, for example. It is just normally there's a STRONG simulation element in K (and FK). Even if the participants are taking on the roles of, say, super heroes, the point is the action being of that genre.
The goal is to have fun playing the game by not focusing on the rules and instead focusing on the fictional world.

It depends on the iteration. FKR isn't single a game, it's a loose cluster of games, designs, designers, etc.
Yes, I understand this. I am simply saying that there may be different GNS agendas in different FKs.
Some can be as simply as: when in conflict where the outcome is uncertain and success or failure would be interesting, make an opposed 2d6 roll. Higher roll wins. Negotiate ties.

That's the entire game. Some add on things like damage tracking, armor, defenses, etc. It's very much about getting rid of the cruft and clutter and immersing in the world.
Sure, but 'immersion' and what is intended to come out of it are somewhat separate things. I mean, I think this kind of immersion probably caters to certain agendas well, and maybe others not so well, but that would be true of any particular approach to formulating an RPG.
The rules about the world, such as they are, typically consist of something like "we're playing Blade Runner with influences from the original novel it's based on, Do Andriods Dream of Electric Sheep. So go watch Blade Runner: Final Cut before we play and read the novel if you have time."

That's typically about it. The Referee decides they want to run a game in that world or the group decides they want to play in this world, go engage with it, and that will inform you about the setting and expectations.
Sure, but that leaves a huge amount unsaid. What are the processes by which it is decided that, say, my character has been given some orders to go hunt down a replicant in the Garment District? Who physically arranges for such a place to exist and what is there? It seems implied in FKR that much of what goes on is live action, but given real-world constraints we cannot obviously play out every possible Blade Runner scenario in a realistic space. There could be quite a few variations of how some of these things are determined. Think of it this way, laser tag is pretty darn close, conceptually, to an FKR! It probably has a different agenda than an FKR that is centered on soap opera style romance!
 

Not in a simulationist sense. In the sense they'll care its only to the degree everyone cares about setting, no matter their aims. Frankly, superhero settings are not exactly well known for their coherence and consistency at the best of times; its rarely their strong suit.

So I'm going to pretty much stand by my opinion here.
I think that's a matter of preferences for the participants in a game using the genre, and thus may have a strong influence on which system they choose to play with. I can tell you, there are plenty of people who are super vested in all the details of these comic book worlds, and they can categorically tell you that X cannot happen unless you're in 'Earth 32' and if so then Super Man MUST BE DEAD, etc. Trust me, our FLGS was, for years, the upper floors of a comic book shop that was owned by some REALLY extreme comic geeks, like the store owned a comprehensive collection of classic Golden Age material (the owner possesses one of the copies of Superman #1, so you can see just how deep the geekery goes there). You may not think that setting simulation is possible in that genre, but you'd be out of that place on your ear right quick if you stated that opinion out loud to them! They lived it, so I KNOW its possible, lol. (and yes, you can have endless debates about what is canon, but that generally just resolved to "Oh, this is the 1961-67 version of Gotham City where....").
 

Also, Story Now isn't about emergent story -- that's a very Classic Culture and OSR Culture thing. That story is whatever you put together after play. Story Now doesn't care about that as its focus or agenda. It fixes on on right now, what pressure/ conflict/ antagonism is happening right now and what are the PCs doing about it?
You literally describe the process by which the story is emerging.
 

Has there? If I agreed, I wouldn't be making the argument I did (though I think you're conflating me in part with someone else; I'm not the one that brought up GEN). Its my position is that while there's been "evolution" in thinking, its to be noted its not in the sense of improvement; in fact, as I said, I think GNS is even less useful than GDS, and GDS had plenty of problems to start with, but all GNS did is trade them for others (such as the whole concept of "incoherence" which, at the very least, was not presented as the extreme in GDS terms, where the worst someone would say is there's some trade offs).
Well, I didn't get into that, but yes I do think that many specific game designs are incoherent in agenda. Explain to me the agenda of AD&D 2e and how the game's design actually supports that agenda. You cannot, and GNS actually quite effectively describes why and how this is. I've not really seen an analysis of 2e in GDS terms, so I'm not going to go into that. Needless to say, I think the objections to GNS are somewhat overblown, but remember, it isn't some sort of final word on RPGs, and in fact if you were to go hobnob with Ron Edwards or many of the people who were playing around with it 15 or 20 years ago, today they have developed newer tools (about which I'm not the most knowledgeable TBH, but my impression is they are a bit less categorical in nature). In any case, I have no argument with various ways of analyzing things, but I can see and measure the effectiveness of these methods. TBH I personally cannot even figure out how GDS makes sense in and of itself and have not been able to apply it usefully to any game design or play. However that doesn't mean you can't!
Also, if you demand for something to not include even setting for Nar to apply to it, then the vast majority of things you see as presented as Nar aren't, either; they may not fill in the complete elements of the setting at the start (but then, neither did all Dramatist settings; all they really needed was rest state after all) but they aren't tabula rasas.
I was merely discussing Story Now and how it would relate to the 'D' in GDS. IMHO Story Now, as it would be analyzed in a GNS sense or by current generation indy RPG designers, is not the D of GDS at all. Story Now has to do with emergent narrative where the 'Impossible Thing Before Breakfast' was addressed via taking away the GM's job of making up all the setting elements. This resolves the Impossible Thing, because the story, which has to arise in part out of setting, is no longer pre-ordained by the GM, that entire path is no longer available, what Young is referring to as Illusionist and Participationist, and even Trailblazing either don't exist or are greatly reduced because the players got to address 'Myth' themselves. Thus the PLAYERS are at least substantially in charge of story as well as protagonists. At the same time, the GM in a PbtA, for instance, has more input into the PCs than in D&D as well, so that system kind of works both ways. 'Dramatism' in GDS however is entirely compatible with a predesigned setting, and in fact is perfectly compatible with even Young's strongest form of Illusionism!
 

Yeah. This is anecdotal, but I generally do not see Forgeist language used in by enthusiasts of trad or osr games as a means of reviewing, evaluating, or designing games or individual play sessions (I’m talking here of online boards like Reddit, discord, etc). That is, Call of Cthulhu players don’t evaluate a new supplement with regards to how simulation it is or not (much less how “participationist” it is); same with OSR/FKR players. Time to time someone will bring a theoretical term up, but I have not seen sustained discussions.

On the other hand, and again anecdotal, categorizing those games using, say, a GNS model, does appear to be really helpful for enthusiasts for story-now games. And that usefullness is a real thing obviously, but good to keep in mind that it’s not universal or even potentially universal (i.e. if a bunch of dnd players read about gameism some would agree and some would disagree, but I don’t know that the terms would ‘stick’ in how those players approached playing dnd).

Any field has theory. Maybe what’s notable about RPGs is that there is some kinds of knowledge and thought about games that explicitly marks itself out as Theory, and there are a lot of other implied theories of games and gaming that currently take the form of “advice” or folk understandings.

(Fwiw, since some are comparing Forge theory to theory in other fields, it strikes me as being similar to structural functionalism in mid century anthropology and sociology)
Well, I agree that people are free to apply or not apply whatever intellectual structures they wish to their activities. I certainly am not one to fault someone for not doing a GNS style analysis of their FK! That doesn't mean I cannot apply that framework to it and derive some sort of insights about it. I would further propose that using various such constructs could well elucidate areas where a game could be improved, or at least perhaps explain why it is most suited to particular participants, etc. Those seem like useful goals.
 

Which is why engaging with strong genre is a dramatic question, not a simulationist one; someone can engage with a setting on a purely simulationist ground while utterly ignoring genre in those (they're unlikely to do so in soft genres, because soft genres are usually more about setting and situation types than assumed metareality rules the way superhero and a few other genres do).
Right. We discussed superhero genre logic in the other thread, and I find it (or at least excessive amount of it) rather jarring, and would have hard time playing a game that relied heavily on it. I would probably quite like a more simulationist superhero game that took the superpowers seriously and explored the consequences in more grounded manner. Like you say, simulation and genre emulation are very different things and can easily be in direct conflict!
 

You literally describe the process by which the story is emerging.
I'm obviously not @Ovinomancer, but if I understood them correctly, I can see where they're coming from. When we're talking about the emergent story à la OSR, what we mean is that we see the threads of a story that came together in retrospect (which happens because OSR games do not force any narrative structures but let players play according to the assumptions of the universe). The kind of emergent story here is what I call "this could only happen in D&D", like the example of my players beating Cyan Bloodbane with a Bag of Beans seed that sprouted a small pyramid to which they lured the dragon. All of this happened with no regard to a story structure when we were playing and happened only because I was simulating what should happen given the previous circumstances ("Cyan is vain and wants easy treasure", "the roll on the bags landed on sprouting a pyramid, so I guess I'll now adjudicate how that pyramid would sprout even if it completely derails the adventure" and so on). Only when we looked back on that game and said "Wow, what a crazy game!" did it become a story in retrospect.

In contrast (though admittedly my only experience with narrativist games is badly running a FATE Accelerated Pokemon oneshot and a few Cortex Prime games and reading some PbtA books, and apparently FATE isn't even categorised as a Story Now game so I might completely wrong), Story Now is about having mechanics that stricly distribute power over the fiction so that a narrative has to emerge. However, this emergence is (as the name suggests) in the moment and not retrospective like an OSR game. When you play Marvel Heroic Roleplaying and a character causes a d12 to be added to the Doom Pool by botching, the mechanics force everyone at the table to explain how the stakes got worse. That pushes everyone to add something to the narrative that reflects the mechanical effect. You might say that the Hulk throwing Ultron to incapacitate him revealed innocent civilians hidden behind that wall, and now Ultron has taken those civilians hostage. Now the opposition pool to anything the players do will have an extra d12 as a reminder of the raised stakes. This is not a piece of narrative that emerged only when you look back upon it, but it is a narrative that is forcefully made to emerge as a result of player-GM cooperation in shaping the fiction.
 

It is all rather logical.
Only if you have a decoder ring. My seems to have gone walkabout.
Sure, but that leaves a huge amount unsaid. What are the processes by which it is decided that, say, my character has been given some orders to go hunt down a replicant in the Garment District? Who physically arranges for such a place to exist and what is there?
Not everything needs spelling out. FKR games are traditional in the sense of a standard Referee / player split in authority.
It seems implied in FKR that much of what goes on is live action…
FKR games are not live-action free-form. They’re tabletop RPGs.
Think of it this way, laser tag is pretty darn close, conceptually, to an FKR!
Uh…no. They‘re about as similar as D&D and laser tag.
 

This question comes out of the thread discussing whether D&D is simulationist. The question relates to an envisioned categorisation of games into gamist, explorative or simulationist, and dramatic or narrative. There is some disagreement over the qualities or meaning of these categories, but I think one can say they are defined by some combination of goals (or decisions or desires) and techniques (or mechanics) depending on how welded one feels the latter are to the former. Example models bear the three-letter acronyms GDS, GNS, and GEN.

In the simulationist thread, folk called out this or that game or mechanic as gamist and therefore not simulationist, without having an appealing definition of gamism to sustain the disjunction. Ease of play and engagement (or interest) were called out. Does one therefore suppose that narrativist games are perforce not easy to play, and not engaging or interesting!? That seems unlikely. FWIW I am more drawn to the camp that do not count techniques (such as distribution of power) as necessarily welded to goals (such as resolution of premises).

So I wondered, if we say that D&D is gamist, what does that mean? And perhaps more importantly, in what ways is gamism appealing or valuable? Why is D&D gamist (if it is?) Some terms I thought of were fairness, balance, diversity, and creativity. I think many would argue for challenge or competitivenss, but that seems to me an unsophisticated idea about what gamism necessarily amounts to. Gamers who identify themselves as such may enjoy more cooperative play, for example. Not all require GM as adversary. Is gamism even one impulse?! Is it one mode, or many bundled into one just because of insufficient scrutiny or understanding.

Again, do we say D&D is gamist? What does that mean? And what are its appealing benefits?
Going back to the original premise here... Of course D&D is Gamist. I mean, look, I played the game, actual D&D, quite a bit during its initial lifespan (IE from 1974 to about 1979 when IME most people had adopted one or another 2nd generation D&D in whole or part). It was an utterly gamist thing. It never pretended to simulate anything at all, as it was devoid of any definite setting, and its genre is entirely unique. While you could probably emphasize Narrative and little in D&D itself gets much in the way of that, it is also not particularly supported and D&D's absolute Referee/DM adjudication system means it is prone to Illusionism/Participationism/Trailblazing types of play, which are not particularly Narrative. So, at least in a GNS sense, we're left with Gamist. It is, AFAIK considered nowadays to be the classic Step On Up kind of Gamist challenge RPG. The goal is loot and XP, pure and simple.

Now, if we looked at a GEN sort of view of D&D... I don't really get their 'Explorative' intent, these intents don't seem at all exclusive or prescriptive of anything much. Gamist is the easiest to look at, and again D&D is pretty gamist, it includes many constructs that exist purely to facilitate game play. However, why is D&D not 'explorative', it certainly is completely consisting of EXPLORATION, which is genuine from the player/character perspective in that what they find out was not known to at least the PC. I can see why D&D is analyzed in premise to be a 'character' game, but that's a pretty shallow definition of CHARACTER, as D&D is an overwhelmingly pawn-stance game in which the PC's traits have almost no bearing on personality, goals, etc. This reduces character to basically nothing but numbers. Yet it cannot be about setting, as there is none. Situation is also not something that is much addressed by the game itself, though we might say that D&D has a decent amount of rules about "being in an underground/wilderness setting of a specific sort." I think you're starting to see why GEN is not a very useful framework for evaluating game systems! As for the 3rd 'top tier' element, 'Realism', well in retrospect of knowing many other game designs since then, yes many of them are more likely to produce realistic results, but I guess this axis at least seems logical to me in some degree.

Some of the GEN 'bottom tier' stuff can be discussed, but some of it I don't find super useful, and if you can't relate it to goals of game design it isn't that useful. I mean, reward and resolution mechanics are here, but IMHO those are really secondary to what you want to accomplish! Weight? I mean, OK, its a thing, but again, just listing these traits of a game system, what does it do? I would say D&D is a reasonably light system, though I am not sure I would call it 'freeform'. More 'ad-hoc', which isn't an option! I think we can posit that it is a Fortune system that is regulating effects, but I'm not sure what 'for cause' is supposed to really mean. I would divide this up more on the lines of Action vs Intent being resolved, which I think is a more modern and better option. Other than that it is pretty obviously a completely pre-plotted game where all authorship and direction are centralized in a DM. Early D&D was generally thought of as a type of sandbox, but often with strong DM inputs into suggest direction, so maybe ideally it is a Trailblazing kind of system at heart, which IMHO is a more useful analysis.

I couldn't even attempt to give you a description of how D&D is in a GDS sense, as I can't really understand the criteria of 3-fold theory to any great degree.

Obviously successive editions/variations of the game have gone SLIGHTLY in other directions, but IMHO TSR D&D is fairly consistent, aside from 2e fooled with 'narrative' but not in a serious way. 5e could definitely be seen as a simulation of 2e though!
 

Remove ads

Top