D&D General Supposing D&D is gamist, what does that mean?

(As noted above, Values-and-Issues play is mostly vestigial in D&D, for a variety of reasons. So I didn't mention that, not because it can't be done--it can, as the "4e as Story Now" folks attest--but because that's just not typically a component of the...standard game-purposes "package" for D&D DMs.)

I find this interesting, because my perception at least is that what you call Values-and-Issues play is actually the second most common approach these days, where as what you refer to as Groundedness is almost vestigial (it didn't used to be, but that time has passed a long time ago these days). As I've noted, there's not a lot of mechanical support for it, but its very clear by the way many people speak about the game they consider Groundedness either overrated or outright irrelevant in the D&D sphere. Those that don't are usually a subset of OS players/GMs.

Do you feel like elaborating why you feel to the contrary?
 

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I would love to see discussion of games that deliberately weave some number of the 3–4 main modes of play, how they do it, and how well they pull it off. I know they're out there!

Are you referring to "games" as in "published products" or as in "home campaigns" here? Because I think it happens a lot with the latter, just in an often very ad-hoc fashion.
 

What distinguishes it from Sim?
In my view, a couple of things distinguish The Dying Earth RPG from sim.

(1) Here is Edwards on high concept simulationism: "The process of prep-play-enjoy works by putting "what you want" in, then having "what you want" come out, with the hope that the System's application doesn't change anything along the way."

The Dying Earth doesn't work in that fashion. The participants have to actually deliver "what you want" by way of their play along the way. They have to be Vancian authors.

(2) In the same essay, Edwards contrasts some behavioural parameters mechanics:

Consider the behavioral parameters of a samurai player-character in Sorcerer and in GURPS. On paper the sheets look pretty similar: bushido all over the place, honorable, blah blah. But what does this mean in terms of player decisions and events during play? I suggest that in Sorcerer (Narrativist), the expectation is that the character will encounter functional limits of his or her behavioral profile, and eventually, will necessarily break one or more of the formal tenets as an expression of who he or she "is," or suffer for failing to do so. No one knows how, or which one, or in relation to which other characters; that's what play is for. I suggest that in GURPS (Simulationist), the expectation is that the behavioral profile sets the parameters within which the character reliably acts, especially in the crunch - in other words, it formalizes the role the character will play in the upcoming events. Breaking that role in a Sorcerer-esque fashion would, in this case, constitute something very like a breach of contract.​
The complex one: Consider the behavioral parameters of a knight player-character in The Riddle of Steel and in Pendragon. This one's a little trickier for a couple of reasons, first because Pendragon has two sets of behavioral rules, and second because both games permit a character's behavioral profile to change.​
1) The Pendragon knight includes a set of paired, dichotomous Traits (e.g. Worldly / Chaste) which are scored numerically, and which change scores inversely. They are used either (a) as behavior-establishers (roll vs. Cruel to see whether you behead the churl for his rudeness) or (b) as record-keepers for player-driven behavior (you beheaded him? Check Cruel, which increases its chance to raise its score later). The Riddle of Steel knight has no equivalent system to (a); all character behavior is driven by the player. Its Spiritual Attributes, however, do rise and fall with character behavior much as Pendragon's (b).​
2) The Pendragon knight also may develop one or more Passions, which are expressed in the form of a fixed set of bonus dice for actions that support that Passion. These are established through play and may increase, although not decrease; different Passions may conflict within a single character. The Riddle of Steel's Spiritual Attributes (Drive, Destiny, Passion, Faith, Luck, and Conscience) act as bonus dice much as in Pendragon Passions but (a) may be individually eliminated and substituted with another Spiritual Attribute by the player with very little restriction, and (b) are intimately connected to the most significant character-improvement mechanic.​
I suggest that both games include the concept that personal passion is a concrete effectiveness-increase mechanic, but that Pendragon does so in a "fixed-path-upwards" fashion (when the knight's passions are involved), whereas The Riddle of Steel does so under the sole helm of the player's thematic interests of the moment. Furthermore, the latter game directly rewards the player for doing so.​
I may be a little biased about this issue, but it seems to me that a character in Narrativist play is by definition a thematic time-bomb, whereas, for a character in Simulationist play, the bomb is either absent (the GURPS samurai), present in a state of near-constant detonation (the Pendragon knight, using Passions), or its detonation is integrated into the in-game behavioral resolution system in a "tracked" fashion (the Pendragon knight, using the dichotomous traits). Therefore, when you-as-player get proactive about an emotional thematic issue, poof, you're out of Sim. Whereas enjoying the in-game system activity of a thematic issue is perfectly do-able in Sim, without that proactivity being necessary.​

In The Dying Earth, the resolution system is based on rerolls until you win or stop spending the points to power the rerolls. So the player is able to be proactive about resisting persuasion and resisting temptations. And also has a degree of control over how the pools are replenished or grown. So it is closer to (a sillier version of) the "thematic time-bomb" than either of the Pendragon approaches.

I think these are the two features that lead Edwards to consider it a narrativist RPG. I think he's right, based on both reading the text and a (small amount of) play experience. It's actually a little bit like Wuthering Heights, another game that I think Edwards is correct to characterise as narrativist, even though there is a surface-level resemblance between a Wuthering Heights PC sheet and a Pendragon one.

The game is certainly NOT about character development in any substantive sense.

<snip>

I don't think any character's core character traits would ever be challenged by activity within the game.
Character development plays no role at all in The Dying Earth RPG! The rules are clear on this. Edwards is aware of it.

All this shows it that not all narrativist RPGing is about character. Here is Edwards again:

Situation-based Premise is perhaps the easiest to manage as GM, as player-characters are well-defined and shallow, and the setting is vague although potentially quite colorful. The Premise has little to do with either in the long-term; it's localized to a given moment of conflict. Play often proceeds from one small-scale conflict to another, episodically. Good examples of games based on this idea include Prince Valiant, The Dying Earth, and InSpectres. . . .

Situation doesn't have any particular role or importance to the Setting, either in terms of where it comes from or what happens later. The setting can be quite vague and might even just be a gray haze that characters are presumed to have travelled through in order to have encountered this new Situation.

This type of Premise does carry some risks: (1) the possibility of a certain repetition from event to event, but probably nothing that you wouldn't find in other situation-first narrative media, which is to say serial fiction of any kind; (2) the heightened possibility of producing pastiche; and (3) the heightened possibility of shifting to Gamist play. . . .

[A] very common misconception [is] that if enjoyable Exploration is identifiable during play, then play must be Simulationist or at least partly so. This is profoundly mistaken: if you address Premise, it's Narrativist play. Period. If the Exploration involved, no matter how intensive, hones and focuses that addressing-Premise process, then that Exploration is still Narrativist, not Simulationist.

That's why Feng Shui and Hong Kong Action Theater are hard-core, no-ambiguity Simulationist-facilitating games including their explicit homage to specific cinematic stories, and that's why The Dying Earth facilitates Narrativist play, because its Situations are loaded with the requirement for satirical, judgmental input on the part of the players. . . .

For a Narrativist-oriented game, the touchpoint throughout should always be, what's the Premise? I think stating it right out in front of everybody is the best way to go, or a version which is easily customized further. An alternative might be to inspire the Premise through Exploration-discussion, but it's risky - doing that usually works only for Situation-based Premise games, like The Dying Earth.​

This is also why when @Crimson Longinus says there are no sub-types of "story now"/narrativism in Edwards' model he is wrong. There is the low/high-risk dimension (The Dying Earth is low risk - Edwards correctly groups it with those games that are, "for lack of a better word, "lighter" or perhaps more whimsical - they do raise issues and may include extreme content, but play-decisions tend to be less self-revealing"). And there are character-driven, setting-driven and situation-driven approaches.

To reiterate: the difference between the latter, and simulationism, is the dependence upon actual player input of evaluation/response/judgement.
 

I find this interesting, because my perception at least is that what you call Values-and-Issues play is actually the second most common approach these days, where as what you refer to as Groundedness is almost vestigial (it didn't used to be, but that time has passed a long time ago these days). As I've noted, there's not a lot of mechanical support for it, but its very clear by the way many people speak about the game they consider Groundedness either overrated or outright irrelevant in the D&D sphere. Those that don't are usually a subset of OS players/GMs.

Do you feel like elaborating why you feel to the contrary?
Wait, you are saying Story Now—the closest GNS approximation of my "Values-and-Issues" game-purpose—is the second-most-common approach to D&D today?

Where is this happening? Who is playing this way? This would be huge if true.
 

Edwards pointed out repeatedly that his categories were to be considered as describing moments and decisions (see Labels), not players or whole games, but then he would go ahead and say things like "Simulationist game", often with a comment that he was doing it as a shorthand for something like "game that prioritizes or supports Simulationist play". But shorthands have a way of masking....

I would love to see discussion of games that deliberately weave some number of the 3–4 main modes of play, how they do it, and how well they pull it off. I know they're out there!
I'm not sure they are. Mostly it's a toggle -- you do one thing here and the other thing there. 5e does this, where outside of combat play is strong high-concept sim, but combat can be approached in a gamist way. This still creates conflicts, though, because death of a PC in a high-concept sim often causes issues; you have complaints that achieving challenge in combats requires "unrealistic" numbers of encounters (gamism/sim conflict), etc.

I think this is because another wrong but useful way to look at GNS is to see what the players are expected to advocate for in a moment of play:

Simulationism requires advocacy for setting or story;
Gamism requires advocacy for challenge
Narrativism requires advocacy for character.

Again, incomplete, not actually right, but useful. It's hard to advocate for any two of these at the same time.
 

How do you examine the Conceit without doing something to portray or instantiate it? "Emulation" is just the process of portrayal. As said elsewhere, it is the act of elevating a concept so that one might appreciate it. Sometimes this will mean Emulation in the sense of genre and the conventions so associated. Sometimes it will mean Emulation in the sense of a specific author's work (Jack Vance, HP Lovecraft, JRR Tolkien), others an overall theme or idea with no singular source that goes a bit beyond genre proper ("wacky hijinks," "survival," "intrigue"), or cultural packages associated with particular time periods and/or regions (e.g. "Arabian Nights," "Wuxia," "Sword-and-Sandal"), etc.

By elevating this tone, theme, genre, style, idea, etc., the act of play becomes focused on generating the conditions that will fulfill the thing elevated in a satisfying and effective way. Situations (challenges, issues, etc.) will be shaped not by their naturalistic-rationalistic consequences, nor by the need to surmount obstacles, nor by the values the players wish to see put to the test. (Or, at least, those things will be a secondary consideration, filigree overtop the main focus.) Instead, situations will be shaped so that the Conceit itself will remain center stage, and an enjoyable experience and exploration thereof can occur.

This is why you get DMs saying things like "the point of the game is FUN, if the system produces un-fun results then you SHOULD change them." Because they have an unstated commitment to a Conceit, action-adventure, which is more important than perfect Groundedness or (semi-)objective Score. (Generally most D&D folks don't engage overmuch with Values-and-Issues play at all, so that's neithet here nor there.) This then leads almost inexorably to fudging, among other tools of DM force like illusionism, to ensure the Conceit remains unbroken and center stage. But because most DMs also have a commitment to either "the world is a 'real'/durable/tangible world, one that you can reason about and draw naturalistic conclusions from" or to "there are real challenges in the world that, purely through your own skill, cunning, and resourcefulness, you can overcome and truly own the victory for doing so," the vast majority of DMs who use these tactics (particularly fudging and illusionism) intuitively know that they must do so secretly or it will "ruin" the experience.

It's also why the criticism of these behaviors tends to focus on either "well that's not very naturalistic, how can you say you value realism and physics-engine play and then turn around and secretly rewrite the world when you 'need' to in order to 'fix' it?" Or, from the opposite direction, "doesn't that invalidate the players' successes? They didn't earn anything, you just handed them victory." And then folks who say they stopped doing this and found great success are, essentially, saying that either pure(r) Score-and-Achievement play, or pure(r) Groundedness-and-Simulation play, proved successful and generated experiences the players cherished even though the Conceit of "high-action adventure" was not always enjoyably front and center in the play experience (aka, Emulated). IOW, by this taxonomy, these are DMs saying they consciously chose to stop having C&E be the most important of their game-purposes, and instead allowed one of the others to be the most important instead.
I do still wonder if we're being a bit too "in the box" in terms of thinking about 'C&E'. That is, "War is Dehumanizing" would be a kind of premise, which I think would qualify as a conceit in this terminology. I don't necessarily have to emulate a war to examine it. That is, presumably I have to look at the human effects of war, but it seems like a bit of an odd kind of emulation. Maybe you would classify this kind of scenario differently.
Further, unlike Edwards, I have no issue with a game serving multiple purposes simultaneously.
Neither does Edwards, actually. I know some people have said that, but all he ever claimed was that it produced 'incoherence' and that 'might' lead to issues. I think he's also talked about hybrid agendas and whatnot later. Remember, GNS was some essays from 20 years ago, 3e had barely been published, a LOT has been learned and a lot more said since then. I honestly have not followed a lot of that, since people here seem more interested in Forge discussions that happened way back when.
That the purposes are incommensurate is perfectly cromulent with pursuing more than one. It just means that, in general, there will be one which takes greatest precedent (perhaps universally, perhaps contextually, e.g. S&A in combat and G&S in exploration). So D&D can be a game where the fundamental mechanics are geared toward defining how difficult obstacles are to overcome in a semi-objective fashion (Score) with player actions determining whether they are able to succeed in their goals or not (Achievement), while featuring various themes and tones as the central presentation of those adventures (Conceits) and extemporaneously portraying those themes etc. (Emulation), in a world meant to be modelled closely as if it were a real place with consistent physical-and-magical laws (Groundedness) that one can rationally predict and reason about (Simulation). Non-centric Conceit-and-Emulation play will mention or feature Conceits (as most games will), but will be willing to compromise on actually fulfilling that Conceit in order to maintain some other goal should the two conflict.

(As noted above, Values-and-Issues play is mostly vestigial in D&D, for a variety of reasons. So I didn't mention that, not because it can't be done--it can, as the "4e as Story Now" folks attest--but because that's just not typically a component of the...standard game-purposes "package" for D&D DMs.)

This has the added bonus of giving an additional explanations for why "incoherent" systems would tend to predominate even when many players have one particular preferred game-purpose. (Not that my taxonomy has "incoherent" as a thing, since I think that was a pejorative error on Edwards' part. I'm just responding to his use of it.) That is, people may genuinely actually want different purposes at different times within the same game, or may want to satiate multiple interests over the course of play, so long as each gets some attention. This is a direct challenge to Edwards' assertion (which may or may not have been explicitly stated?) that each person can value one and only one "creative agenda" in a given game. (I don't think he was so foolish as to assert that someone can't enjoy a Sim game for its Sim-ness and a Nar game for its Nar-ness. But he definitely seemed to have said "you can't enjoy both Nar AND Sim in the same game.")


I'm not sure what you mean. If the purpose is to enjoyably examine a thematic concept (whatever form that takes), and the system ever, for any reason, tells you that a result is inconsistent with that thematic concept, it seems to me you have only two choices: (1) accept the result because you value something else more than you value portraying the thematic concept, or (2) reject the result because you value faithfulness to the concept more than other things, and thus alter the result so that it suits. The secrecy of fudging and illusionism are a separate concern, namely preserving the false impression that the game remains fully G&S or S&A—aka "Simulationist" or "Gamist"—that arises from trying to, in essence, have one's cake and eat it too.

Do you have an example of a Conceit where this dichotomy (whether to follow Conceit or system when the two conflict) is not possible even in principle? Because if the Conceit is just "be like reality but augmented with specific fantasy elements," that isn't a Conceit anymore, it's just Groundedness (and this similarity is part of what allowed GNS to err in putting the two in a single bucket.)
I'm not so sure this is an 'error' myself. Your 'Groundedness' just seems to me to be a special type of conceit. I mean, for sheer playability basically ALL RPGs (with a very few specialized exceptions) posit a 'real world like' place, with gravity, where people eat and drink, etc. While the degree of this may vary, I don't think that fact says much. If there's a specific FOCUS on "this world is really really normal" (like, say, Traveller really assumes that the action is happening in a 'real world' with just some specific technological extrapolations being made) then I would consider that to be a type of premise, and I would think it would be a conceit in your theory. Thus I'm not convinced that GNS really errs here in any meaningful way. It would assign any sort of serious attempt to deal with reality in terms of 'Simulation' generally speaking, though exactly which kind would likely depend on the approach and intent. It might also play to a kind of Gamist agenda. One might say that process simulation and gamist focus on the same element could look pretty similar. I think this actually explains how people can argue about, or use in different ways, a lot of the stuff in 3e that feels like an attempt to be 'realistic'.
 

Wait, you are saying Story Now—the closest GNS approximation of my "Values-and-Issues" game-purpose—is the second-most-common approach to D&D today?

No. Remember, I'm not viewing it through GNS lens. To me your description of V&I sounds to me much more like GDS Dramatism. As I've noted before, I don't see a lot of that requiring the specific approach of Story Now.
 


Edwards pointed out repeatedly that his categories were to be considered as describing moments and decisions (see Labels), not players or whole games, but then he would go ahead and say things like "Simulationist game", often with a comment that he was doing it as a shorthand for something like "game that prioritizes or supports Simulationist play". But shorthands have a way of masking....

I would love to see discussion of games that deliberately weave some number of the 3–4 main modes of play, how they do it, and how well they pull it off. I know they're out there!
Well, for instance in my 4e hack there is (presumably, at least I think so) a pretty thoroughly Story Now structure. OTOH the game is still deeply gamist in terms of having a tactical combat system that is pretty much identical to 4e's. However, there are things you could say about whether the two really mesh, or how well they mesh. I have not, for example, really constructed some sort of mechanism to measure the quality of your tactical play, beyond "we survived this encounter", which seems rather silly since the game kinda needs you to survive! I mean, you can look at your resource expenditure and decide if the outcome was acceptable or not, but its not like you get XP for what monsters you killed! (I would say in my defense here 4e is not much stronger in this way, as XP is rather pro-forma). In fact, you really need to go back to the Story Now elements to get some ideas about how good your tactics are and inform why you were fighting, and maybe even establish what the scenario is. So, maybe the gamist part of HoML is secondary, or even superficial. I still think it is there and can be enjoyed though.

I am not really of the opinion that you're going to easily address more than a couple of agendas in a single game. Probably doing so would at least entail creating some sort of 'game within the game' kind of thing.
 


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