D&D General Supposing D&D is gamist, what does that mean?

When you talk about something not really being 'locked in', my response is that in a system that resolves intent it is definitely locked in!!! For the info to be wrong requires a result of 'intent not achieved'. And the GM is NEVER allowed to just take that away. If the player literally staked the outcome somehow in order to gain something else, then sure. Otherwise the original 'intent achieved' result can't be invalidated simply because the GM wants, that basically undermines the whole system!
Did you quote the wrong person? I didn’t mention anything about locking in. The first part of my post is discussing task resolution, and the second conflict resolution. The latter more or less agrees with what you said (though perhaps not as strongly as @pemerton might like).
 

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What are your thoughts on locking in, but generally as a result of description and/or additional efforts (including other checks) by the player? For example, locking in the contents of the safe by describing and playing out acquiring information confirming those contents?
Ok, in PbtA games it would be a result of some single move, whatever that is. In 4e it's going to be established as an outcome of an SC. It is not all that important that the decision be localized to the safe itself. In fact this is a strength of such systems.
 

If locking in of this type (as contrasted with pre-scripted material) is part of play, then how it's done doesn't matter. The story—or the chain of events, to be more fussy about it—is being driven by generative dramatic concerns, not pre-scripted logical or dramatic concerns. I've been in Blades sessions where we went through several steps to investigate and inquire and determine where our objective must be (or even to generate the dramatic need for such a thing)—and that established that it was there, although the critical check at the climactic moment could scupper or complicate our efforts up to that point, for some other reason.
This part matches the locking in that we're using. Players can work things to a point where the dirt must be in the safe, and there could still be a roll if some other complication were possible.

I've been in Blades sessions where we players just put forward a likely fact in the moment, and because we succeeded on the check, it was true. (Or if we failed on the check, and the stakes were specifically that it was or was not there, then it wasn't there.) It all depended on how we wanted to go about things and where we wanted to dive into detail. In all cases, the stakes of each check were open and accepted as to how things would shake out, based on the dice roll (which, by the way, leaves room for "something bad's gonna happen, but you're not sure what"!).
The more difficult case is if the group simply say "Sod it, let's break in and check the safe. Maybe the dirt is there, maybe not." No work done to get things to a locked in state. Player intent in this case is to prove that the dirt is or is not in this safe (as indicated by "maybe the dirt is there, maybe not"). If they can't open the safe (fail), they can't satisfy that intent. If they can open it (succeed), then they do satisfy that intent, even if the safe is empty.

But suppose a player dug their heels in and said - "I'm cracking this safe with the firm and specfic goal / intent of finding the dirt inside" despite having done nothing at all to lock that in!? I asses this as a degenerate case that puts the player in the position of spoilsport. It can also happen as an inadvertant instance of inept play (an antithesis of skilled play) in which case reminding that they've no clues as to what could be in the safe, so the declared intent toward it is ill-formed, gets things back on track. They adjust, maybe crack it, with renewed faithfulness as to what they can say that follows. To see how it's a kind of reaching, imagine instead they say "I'm cracking this safe with the firm and specfic goal / intent of finding a +3 defender sword inside" or something that is normally nonsensical, like finding the safe inside itself!

Locking in of this type is not compatible with GNS process-sim play, clearly. That involves the GM establishing facts about the world ahead of time and sticking to them (although how players can be assured the GM is sticking to pre-established facts is an issue).
Right, albeit to count the bracketed part as a concern is really to shift the analysis to the question of - are GMs trustworthy? I just add "In the case that GM is trustworthy,..." and the assessment is worked out from there.

It's also not compatible with GNS high-concept sim, if that means the GM reserves all right to what's true about the world at large from moment to moment. And those traits are generally expected of those kinds of play.
I might misread this. You mean that in HCS, GM reserves all right to what's true about the world at large from moment to moment. That's how I see it, also. Locking in can mean finding out what was in prep. The character pumps an informant and finds out that no, the dirt isn't in the safe. No safe cracking required. But prep is held lightly and we're working together in an iterative process to learn what is true. It strikes me that folk get that there is an FKR method for task resolution, but I think there is also one for conflict resolution. I need to think on that more.
 
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Ok, in PbtA games it would be a result of some single move, whatever that is. In 4e it's going to be established as an outcome of an SC. It is not all that important that the decision be localized to the safe itself. In fact this is a strength of such systems.
I like the way you put "not all that important that the decision be localized to the safe itself". If I correctly understand your meaning, then that idea is valuable to locking in through preparation and description. A conversation with an informant on the other side of town might lock in the safe contents.
 
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Locking in of this type is not compatible with GNS process-sim play, clearly. That involves the GM establishing facts about the world ahead of time and sticking to them (although how players can be assured the GM is sticking to pre-established facts is an issue). It's also not compatible with GNS high-concept sim, if that means the GM reserves all right to what's true about the world at large from moment to moment. And those traits are generally expected of those kinds of play.

I'm not sure it would be terribly incompatible with high concept. Such cares more about the setting and not necessarily nitty-gritty positioning of details. Like sure 'is the paper in the safe' is in technically a part of the setting, but not really in the sense that people understand setting in the context of the high concept.
 


Considering a game like Apocalypse World, Monsterhearts or Stonetop I think we should take a holistic view of the fundamental structure of play (which Apocalypse World calls the conversation), the game's agenda, it's GM and player principles (Blades in the Dark calls them best practices), and its processes and mechanics. All are part of a cohesive game design.

From my perspective principles / best practices add an additional layer of accountability above and beyond the agenda, play structure and mechanics. They do not replace the need for any of the above. Apocalypse World calls upon its GM to :
  • always say what honesty demands
  • always say what the rules demands
  • always say what your principles demands
  • always say what your prep demands

Principles largely speak to thought process - what concerns should shape the judgement calls we are called upon to make over the course of play. I keep a printout of my GMing principles on hand to use for post mortems and to elicit feedback from players as to how well I am holding up to my end. For a game like Blades that also has principles / best practices for players I also will provide feedback on how well they are meeting the standards set forth for them.
Okay, so now imagine none of that was ever written down i.e. made part of the game text by the game designer. Would you nevertheless be in possession of the system?

Supposing no one was allowed to write down system (because you have said writing it down is immaterial) do you feel it would be guaranteed that a player cohort A was playing the same game as another cohort B? How would they know?

I hope this doesn't seem like an annoying point, but for system to matter, it actually can't just be nebulously held in minds. It comes from there - but the work of design tests, rejects, codifies, normalises, and thus ensures the usefulness of the system. Writing it down isn't immaterial: it's akin to crafting a tool, that you can then wield as you describe.

A well formed TTRPG rule articulates (in writing, diagram, token, or illustration) a principle we may well share, in a form that helps us secure a stronger guarantee of following it in a common way. It can be queried in the ways you describe (we can judge our success in acting in accord or discord with it, and notice any discrepancies in our individual following of the concrete reference.)
 
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The more difficult case is if the group simply say "Sod it, let's break in and check the safe. Maybe the dirt is there, maybe not." No work done to get things to a locked in state. Player intent in this case is to prove that the dirt is or is not in this safe (as indicated by "maybe the dirt is there, maybe not"). If they can't open the safe (fail), they can't satisfy that intent. If they can open it (succeed), then they do satisfy that intent, even if the safe is empty.
I see no problem here. If the GM and players want to hustle that particular bit along, that's their prerogative. But presumably folks are at the table to engage in generating an interesting story, not a series of dice rolls establishing mere facts.

Edit: Or satisying intents without any fictional heft.

But suppose a player dug their heels in and said - "I'm cracking this safe with the firm and specfic goal / intent of finding the dirt inside" despite having done nothing at all to lock that in!? I asses this as a degenerate case that puts the player in the position of spoilsport. It can also happen as an inadvertant instance of inept play (an antithesis of skilled play) in which case reminding that they've no clues as to what could be in the safe, so the declared intent toward it is ill-formed, gets things back on track. They adjust, maybe crack it, with renewed faithfulness as to what they can say that follows. To see how it's a kind of reaching, imagine instead they say "I'm cracking this safe with the firm and specfic goal / intent of finding a +3 defender sword inside" or something that is normally nonsensical, like themselves inside!
I'm really not interested in considering how players could be lazy or unfaithful or could flout the basic premises of robust play. There's a basic (if varying) level of plausibility to the fiction that everyone at the table has to agree to, and in more GNS-Narrative games, the group at large tends to hold to it (put another way, players generally self-police). Problem scenarios like this presume an adversarial attitude between participants that is a deeper problem than the details of how the game is played.

Right, albeit to count the bracketed part as a concern is really to shift the analysis to the question of - are GMs trustworthy? I just add "In the case that GM is trustworthy,..." and the assessment is worked out from there.
Sure that's fine. I just wanted to cover that base in case anybody was going to bring it up as a major objection.

I might misread this. You mean that in HCS, GM reserves all right to what's true about the world at large from moment to moment. That's how I see it, also. Locking in can mean finding out what was in prep. The character pumps an informant and finds out that no, the dirt isn't in the safe. No safe cracking required. But prep is held lightly and we're working together in an iterative process to learn what is true. It strikes me that folk get that there is an FKR method for task resolution, but I think there is also one for conflict resolution. I need to think on that more.
No, I mean that, if the GM does reserve that right, then my statement applies to HCS.

I'm interested in the part of your post I bolded above. Could you expand on that?
 
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Your DC is based on difficulty of the task (quality of the safe) and the numbers the player is using to overcome that is based on the character's skill in lock picking. Yet, you use these number to generate probability of something completely unrelated (the papers being in the safe.) That is muddled.
It's not unrelated. It's the whole rationale for even being interested in the safe. If no one was interested in the safe, then the GM would just "say 'yes'" and no dice would be rolled.

And doesn't this create weird incentives? Two characters are staring at the safe, one who is excellent at safe-smashing and one who is just OK at lock-picking. Who should try to open the safe? The smasher, obviously, as they have better chance of generating the papers in the safe! And Athe forbid if someone who's utterly terrible with safes decides to touch it, that will mean there are no papers in it for sure!
Again, you are inputting simulationist premises.

Why would the result of what happens if the safe is picked be indifferent to who is doing it? In a character-driven "story now" game the precise opposite is the case!

EDIT: Campbell made a similar point:
Most games that use player intent to determine stakes you do not frame the action for the overall play group, but for a specific player character. When it's your turn to act it's your turn. The expectation is that when you are called on you are doing something that will move the game forward. Inaction even for a moment will lead to a change to the fiction, often increasing the risk in someway.

In something like a 4e skill challenge the group as a whole sets the intent.
As I've posted already, I think 4e is less character-driven and more setting/cosmology-driven "story now". But I think it can handle some differences in character goal/intent within the skill challenge framework: the DMG2 discusses this a bit and I came up with a few tricks of my own. But it won't handle (say) 3 or 4 highly conflicting goals across 4 or 5 PCs. It's not infinitely malleable.
 
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It’s funny, but I think that system allowing content authoring are better than that!
it would be fool to tie it to the skill and ability check.
Do you have much experience with Burning Wheel? Or Marvel Heroic RP/Cortex+ Heroic? Or Apocalypse World (the DCs are fixed, but the adds to the dice roll reflect character aptitudes)?

Fortune systems allow testing what is at stake in a more exciting fashion than "fiat" systems.
 

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