D&D General Supposing D&D is gamist, what does that mean?

[Thomas Shey]

I'm guessing that the difference in the preciseness of what is Schroedingered and how useful it is supposed to be to the particular mission feel so large as to be a difference in kind to many, and those folks find the argument that there is essentially no important difference to be flabbergasting.

Yeah, its only normally a thing in the whole question of "lateral thinking". There's no intrinsic problem with the fact a carpenter's kit normally doesn't tell you what's in it, because for normal usage there's no need to know. The problem comes when when the question of whether it includes a hammer (or worse, a level) comes up.

 

[Thomas Shey]

Following up to my last post, I would like for the players to list everything, but that's annoying and sometimes they forget. If it's something a reasonable, experienced person almost surely would have brought along based on what they knew before heading out, then I'm fine with calling an audible/mulligan/space-time warp/retcon/Schroedinger and saying they remembered it. If it's something that feels like they probably wouldn't have taken it based on the initial info then I'm not fine with it.

Say you're going repelling that afternoon... you probably brought your repelling gear, first aid kit, and your standard way to signal in an emergency. You probably didn't bring formal wear, a bomb defusing kit, and your fishing gear.

If there is nothing unobvious or out of the ordinary ever gotten or gettable by the BitD rule, then it kind of feels like it just formalizes what a lot of folks use in D&D and expects it to happen more often.

I suspect the issue is what translates into "inobvious" or "out of the ordinary" is very much in the eye of the beholder in many cases.

 

[Thomas Shey]

There is a list of standard gear. Then, there’s a short list of additional gear available to each playbook.

Anything out of the ordinary must either be acquired as an asset during downtime, or else a flashback must be used to establish how/why the item was obtained, which typically requires some Stress to be spent.

So your assessment that it’s just a formalized way to do what many people already informally do is fairly accurate.

I suspect the flashbacks would be the sticking point with some of the people in this thread.

 

[Cadence]

I suspect the flashbacks would be the sticking point with some of the people in this thread.

I confess that I am now feeling the urge to try it for a modern heist adventure.

But if I try imagining it in a fantasy or detective game I picture using it like a nerfed ring of wishes.

 

[pemerton]

I'm guessing that the difference in the preciseness of what is Schroedingered and how useful it is supposed to be to the particular mission feel so large as to be a difference in kind to many, and those folks find the argument that there is essentially no important difference to be flabbergasting.

If there is nothing unobvious or out of the ordinary ever gotten or gettable by the BitD rule, then it kind of feels like it just formalizes what a lot of folks use in D&D and expects it to happen more often.

What is the threshold for "unobvious" or "out of the ordinary"? Obviously, the first time someone in Gygax's or Arneson's game used iron spikes to wedge a door shut against approaching monsters that was novel, but the novelty has worn off over time.

Anyway, as I posted upthread, I didn't assert that there is no interesting difference between D&D and BitD. I did assert that "retcon", "popping into existence" and now "Schroedinger's object" are not accurate descriptions of any difference.

I don't think how useful it is supposed to be is a helpful one either. The issue of equipment lists in D&D, and whether something "obvious" or "not out of the ordinary" can be added to them so as to reflect the fact that the PCs wouldn't forget something so fundamental, is only going to come up if it matters.

This applies equally to the dyes, props, etc in a Disguise Kit; or whatever it is that is supposed to be in a Portable Alchemy Kit. Or @Thomas Shey's example of the Carpentry Kit: no one is going to wonder whether or not the kit contains a level unless it matters to them, here and now in play, that a particular surface or line is or isn't level.

 

[Cadence]

What is the threshold for "unobvious" or "out of the ordinary"? Obviously, the first time someone in Gygax's or Arneson's game used iron spikes to wedge a door shut against approaching monsters that was novel, but the novelty has worn off over time.

Anyway, as I posted upthread, I didn't assert that there is no interesting difference between D&D and BitD. I did assert that "retcon", "popping into existence" and now "Schroedinger's object" are not accurate descriptions of any difference.

I don't think how useful it is supposed to be is a helpful one either. The issue of equipment lists in D&D, and whether something "obvious" or "not out of the ordinary" can be added to them so as to reflect the fact that the PCs wouldn't forget something so fundamental, is only going to come up if it matters.

@hawkeyefan upthread described a part of it as "Anything out of the ordinary must either be acquired as an asset during downtime, or else a flashback must be used to establish how/why the item was obtained, which typically requires some Stress to be spent."

I can see that flashback part playing well for me in a modern heist game where I imagine the inspiration being based on flashbacks. In a D&D or super-hero game it kind of feels indistinguishable to me from having time magic or a time super-power and I can see myself abusing it.

On the other hand "having a standard object I'd expect the person to have be where I'd expect it feels just like smoothing gameplay. Where's the line for ordinary? No clue exactly where it is but I'm sure there are some things obviously on one side or the other. It feels ok to me use an ad-hoc die roll or vote for things that were indeterminant. And if it felt like someone was always trying to play on the edge I'd be good with saying no more often.

 

[pemerton]

@hawkeyefan upthread described a part of it as "Anything out of the ordinary must either be acquired as an asset during downtime, or else a flashback must be used to establish how/why the item was obtained, which typically requires some Stress to be spent."

I can see that playing well for me in a modern heist game where I imagine the inspiration being based on flashbacks. In a D&D or super-hero game it kind of feels indistinguishable to me from having time magic or a time super-power and I can see myself abusing it.

I don't know what would count as "abuse" here.

The following is from the official example of play for Marvel Heroic RP (alternating GM, and Cyclops's player):

Yelena gets to go next and she isn’t happy, but she would love to take down these X-Men. She starts running as slow-mo effects and cool action music begins, charging at Cyclops. At the last second she does one of those nifty wall runs and flips over him, attempting to rip off his Ruby-Quartz Visor as she does so. . . . You take d10 emotional stress. Also, Yelena totally rips the visor right off your face! . . .

Okay, I have my eyes shut tight, and I’m going to try to find my visor on the floor. . . . My dice are Team d10, I Don’t Have Time For This Distinction d8, and I’m going to use a PP to also include the Narrow Corridor Distinction for d8, as I think that would make it easier to find. . .

I’m rolling the doom pool against you, and adding your d10 emotional stress. . . . I did roll an opportunity, do you want to use it?

Yes, I’ll drop a PP to make a resource asset. I’ll make a gadget with my Tech Expert. Cyclops installed a beeper in his visor in case this sort of thing happened. I’ll make Beeper d6 to use next time I roll to find my visor.​

The mechanic here is different from BitD - rather than filling in pre-committed "slots", the player is adding to a gear list by spending a resource when permitted to do so as a result of the GM's roll. But does anyone really think this is modelling magic or time travel?

 

[Cadence]

I don't know what would count as "abuse" here.

The following is from the official example of play for Marvel Heroic RP (alternating GM, and Cyclops's player):

Yelena gets to go next and she isn’t happy, but she would love to take down these X-Men. She starts running as slow-mo effects and cool action music begins, charging at Cyclops. At the last second she does one of those nifty wall runs and flips over him, attempting to rip off his Ruby-Quartz Visor as she does so. . . . You take d10 emotional stress. Also, Yelena totally rips the visor right off your face! . . .​

​

Okay, I have my eyes shut tight, and I’m going to try to find my visor on the floor. . . . My dice are Team d10, I Don’t Have Time For This Distinction d8, and I’m going to use a PP to also include the Narrow Corridor Distinction for d8, as I think that would make it easier to find. . .​

​

I’m rolling the doom pool against you, and adding your d10 emotional stress. . . . I did roll an opportunity, do you want to use it?​

​

Yes, I’ll drop a PP to make a resource asset. I’ll make a gadget with my Tech Expert. Cyclops installed a beeper in his visor in case this sort of thing happened. I’ll make Beeper d6 to use next time I roll to find my visor.​

The mechanic here is different from BitD - rather than filling in pre-committed "slots", the player is adding to a gear list by spending a resource when permitted to do so as a result of the GM's roll. But does anyone really think this is modelling magic or time travel?

The universe going on hold while Scott instantiates a beeper at some time in the past so he can find his visor now (using some of his son from the futures time travel mojo?) doesn't feel that far off from Scott having serindipitously been monkeying around in a lab for some reason making changes to the visor he's had forever.and not remembering it until now.

On the other hand, if Cyclops got kidnapped while working with the Avengers, I'd believe that Tony Stark would have fixed him up covertly with a tracking device for some reason Steve wouldn't approve of, for example. Or if it was Hank (either one) who wore a visor, then I could see them having modified it. Or in the visor taken off case I'd believe Hawkeye had a suction cup arrow on a wire to get it back. There are a lot of characters where having just the right thing doesn't seem to fit.

 

[niklinna]

The universe going on hold while Scott instantiates a beeper at some time in the past so he can find his visor now (using some of his son from the futures time travel mojo?) doesn't feel that far off from Scott having serindipitously been monkeying around in a lab for some reason making changes to the visor he's had forever.and not remembering it until now.

On the other hand, if Cyclops got kidnapped while working with the Avengers, I'd believe that Tony Stark would have fixed him up covertly with a tracking device for some reason Steve wouldn't approve of, for example. Or if it was Hank (either one) who wore a visor, then I could see them having modified it. Or in the visor taken off case I'd believe Hawkeye had a suction cup arrow on a wire to get it back. There are a lot of characters where having just the right thing doesn't seem to fit.

This is now reminding me of that old Saturday morning Sid & Marty Krofft show, Electra Woman and Dyna Girl, in which every episode started with their resident engineer, Frank, showing them his latest experimental module for their utility belts high-tech wrist thingamabobs, which would of course invariably turn out to be just the thing they needed at a critical point toward the end of the episode. That would be more like the GM handing the players particular items with a wink & a nod, of course.

Toggle switches. So quaint.

 

[hawkeyefan]

One big difference is that a character's loadout in Blades in the Dark is limited to 3, 5, or 6 "significant" items from that limited list you mentioned earlier. Each limit corresponds to your increasing likelihood of drawing unwanted attention. Compare that to the usual inventory list characters have in many other role-playing games (and this isn't even considering bags of holding and the like). This tight limit on gear means that, even though you are determing on the fly what you have, deciding when to commit to having a particular item is a heavily consequential decision: Once you run out of loadout slots, that's it.

Exactly! This is why I find the system so much more engaging than most others. It matters to play far more often.

Compared to my 5e games where across 7 years of play, I can likely count on one hand all the times that an interesting decision regarding inventory came up. It’s like a mostly absent part of the game.

I suspect the flashbacks would be the sticking point with some of the people in this thread.

Sure, but I’d say that’s likely a gut reaction more than a considered objection. RPGs are establishing all kinds of “past” details during play all the time. People don’t blink an eye at most of it.

@hawkeyefan upthread described a part of it as "Anything out of the ordinary must either be acquired as an asset during downtime, or else a flashback must be used to establish how/why the item was obtained, which typically requires some Stress to be spent."
I can see that flashback part playing well for me in a modern heist game where I imagine the inspiration being based on flashbacks. In a D&D or super-hero game it kind of feels indistinguishable to me from having time magic or a time super-power and I can see myself abusing it.

It’s hard to abuse, honestly. A Flashback costs a certain amount of Stress, which is a finite resource that is also used for certain special abilities, to push for extra dice on a roll, to assist other characters, and to resist negative consequences. So you really need your Stress, and can’t afford to spend it on frivolous Flashbacks.

Both Flashbacks and Loadout are meant to portray preparedness by a capable criminal. They’re also a product of the structure of the game where not everything needs to happen in struct linear time. Run into a guard dog on a B&E? Flashback to how you cased the joint the day before and spotted the dog, and decided to stop at the butcher shop for the nice steak that you now pull out of your backpack.

It’s honestly just a test of a different sort of player skill.