Sure Strike.

[keterys]

I think my problem is that I think the fighter has a pretty good chance to hit already and that using sure strike prior to any major set of Encounter and/or Daily (and AP) isn't really desirable. At least the leader ones are on leaders and require teamwork.

 

[Staffan]

My house rule is that Sure (and Careful) Strike do [W]+Str damage (+Dex instead for Careful used at range).

I am comparing it to Valiant Strike (Paladin at-will; Str +1 per adjacent opponent vs AC; [W]+Str damage) and Piercing Strike (Rogue at-will; Dex vs Ref; [W]+Dex damage). Valiant has an attack bonus that's at least +1 (unless you're using a reach weapon, but then you're doing it wrong) and quite often will be even higher, and still gets to add stat bonus to damage. Piercing Strike is one of the few powers that get the Weapon keyword and target a non-AC defense, which are supposed to be on average 2 points lower than AC according to the monster design guidelines, and also gets to add stat bonus to damage.

So I think Str+2 to hit, [W]+Str damage is a pretty balanced deal for Sure and Careful Strike (substituting Dex for ranged Careful).

I have seen some people argue that getting attack bonuses in 4e is really powerful, and is worth giving up the extra damage for. I disagree, at least in this case. Attack bonuses are great when you can use them to set up a special attack and make certain that it hits. If I could get a +2 to hit with my Thicket of Blades power (Close Burst 1, Str vs AC, 3W+Str+Slowed (save ends)) at the cost of losing Str bonus to damage, that would be worthwhile, because the Str damage is pretty small in comparison to the 3W, not to mention the Slowed rider effect. But it's not worth giving up your Str bonus to damage when you're only doing W to begin with and there's nothing accompanying the attack.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

I think my problem is that I think the fighter has a pretty good chance to hit already and that using sure strike prior to any major set of Encounter and/or Daily (and AP) isn't really desirable. At least the leader ones are on leaders and require teamwork.

That's the drawback of this idea. It is not only stealing a little from the Leaders thunder, it's even removing part of its necessity.

Maybe grant a small bonus to AC and Reflex Defense? Still a Leader shtick, but it's also the leaders job to get attacked a lot, and improved defenses might be worth it.

 

[keterys]

For careful strike, I think I'd be tempted to change it entirely to Ranged only, Dex vs AC, 1W+Dex damage, Special: This attack does not provoke opportunity attacks.

Then again, I also think that Twin Strike should be melee only so maybe I object too much to how they handled Rangers to be objective there.

 

[That One Guy]

So, I do like Nifft's solution. I think it's okay because it's a self buff, and may actually be useful for the supposed intent behind sure strike... which I imagine to be allow for a more accurate attack.

Keterys' solution is good as well. I think it allows for Heroic tier use and can be used in conjunction with Warlord powers, Power Attack, etc. It would be more of a team player power in that case IMO.

Cadfan is right. Sure Strike needs a new job. Which is why I like the aforementioned solutions. I still like the idea of adding dex mod or wis mod to the hit bonus because I think it works with the flavour. I think it would be a power for overcoming a high AC, but not insured damage (reaping strike). While the jobs would still overlap in that case, I think it'd allow Sure Strike some flexibility in seeing Power Attack get some serious use.

M_R, I agree with you most of the time, but I love WIS bonus to my sweet sweet OAs. So, I think I prefer Tintagel's solution. But, I guess Stalker0's point holds true. In that form it'd be too similar in purpose to Reaping Strike, and for my 16Str 16Wis Build pretty much a must.

I guess I see Reaping Strike as consistent damage and Sure Strike as trying to overcome a high AC in function... but it doesn't really work too well for that.

What about...

Str + Weapon Associated Stat Mod vs. AC
[W] + 1/2 associated mod damage.
Special: If a weapon type has multiple associated stats, choose one when using this power.

Then Sure Strike's function would be to take advantage of secondary stats for greater accuracy. I think this might give it a unique function and still accomplish its intention better than how it is currently manifested.

(I think Melee Careful Strike could work the same way and that ranged Careful Strike could use Str or Wis as the Weapon Associated mod stat)

 

[tintagel]

So, That One Guy, you mean:

Hit: Str+Wis vs AC
Damage: [W]+Wis

With Dex subbing for Str when applicable?

 

[keterys]

Or you could really spin it -

Sure Strike = Attack: Str vs Will

 

[That One Guy]

So, That One Guy, you mean:

Hit: Str+Wis vs AC
Damage: [W]+Wis

With Dex subbing for Str when applicable?

As far as Careful Strike goes, yes. Except that what I propose is 1/2Wis mod to damage. Subbing Dex for Str appropriately.

For Fighters w/ polearms it would be

Hit: Str + Wis vs AC
Damage: [W] + 1/2Wis

But, using something like light blades would use Dex instead of Wis. Hammers would use Con instead of Wis. I combine two guilty pleasures - a weapon's secondary stat coming into play and making sure strike better.


...For some reason Str vs. Will seems really powerful. I don't know if it is. Would every build want it?

Hmm... well, I just thought of a S&B build where it wouldn't be the 'duh, of course' option so I think it might not be overly powered.

Anyone who's better at math crunching crunch?

 

[keterys]

Well, I was assuming you'd keep it at 1W damage. At which point it compares fairly easily to Piercing Strike (with Piercing Strike coming out on top)

 

[comrade raoul]

What's you're take on a version of Sure Strike that just lets you roll twice and take the best result? That boosts both accuracy (by the equivalent of a bit more than +3 attack) and crit chance (generally almost doubling it).