Surprise, Initiative, and Encounter Distance

[Mercule]

This discussion comes up _every_ week in the game in which I play. We're pretty much a party of rogues moving through an area with lots of hiding things, so it gets pretty hairy.

When does an "encounter" start? When do you drop into combat rounds/roll initiative? Is there a difference between an obviously combat-inducing "encounter" and the start of combat rounds?

Here's the specific scenario from last night:

We're walking down a passage and hear noises down a side passage -- reasonable guess is that it's troglodytes (henceforth "trogs"). We're carrying a light while trogs have darkvision, so they almost certainly know we're there.

Knowing that we can't sneak up to them with the light source, the acrobat (me) walks brazenly out into view with the torch, going full defensive. The elven fighter/rogue with elven cloak and boots sneaks down the passage using my light to see. I continue walking down the hallway with the light, being defensive.

The corridor runs about 40 feet and opens into a roundish cave about 30' across. I circle around one side of the room, playing Polish mine detector for the hiding trogs and trusting the elf (who has a high enough spot to notice the trogs) to step in at the critical point. We eventually kill them all.

Specific sticking points were:

1) Since we heard the trogs and knew they were somewhere nearby, could they still surprise us (me, specifically).

2) Did combat rounds start when we heard them/they saw the light? Did it start when someone actually made a hostile move?

3) Could I have been using the "full defense" option? It's a combat maneuver and I couldn't actually pinpoint _any_ enemies.

4) Could I have readied an "attack the first trog I see" action as I'm wandering about?

5) Could the trogs have readied an "attack the human when he gets close" action?

6) Would I (or they) be flat-footed at the time of the ambush?

 

[Tom Cashel]

1. No.

2. Combat begins when the DM asks for an initiative roll (Usually when PCs or NPCs intend a hostile move, but that's up to the DM).

3. Yes.

4. No, because you're moving. Readied actions are reactive, not proactive.

5. Yes. (see #4)

6. Probably. From the beginning of combat to the time of your first action (including the surprise round), you are flat-footed. However, Rogues have class abilities that prevent them ever being flat-footed, once a certain level is reached.

 

[KnowTheToe]

If the acrobat did not make his spot check and the Trogs jump out of the shadow, can't this count as surprise?

You might be suspicious, but have no specifics. I am not sure of the exact definition of Surprise Round.

 

[Lucius Foxhound]

Magnificent Bastard though he may be, I agree with most of Tom's rulings, except #3.

You cannot walk around with the full defense option. This is something you can do on your initiative. Assuming you win, you can use that as your action ... but it is a standard action. So if its not your turn yet, you cannot be on the defensive.

 

[LokiDR]

As per the DMG, you can not perform combat manuvers out of combat. This seems simple, but it will come up later, and is the basis of my argument on the subject.

In the situation you were in, you heard something. This tipped you off that you were not alone. Unless the trogs charge at that moment, though, you are not on initive. You are not in combat, you are just being cautious. Since you are not in combat, you can't use combat manuvers, like fighting defensively. Your tatics are still sound though.

Ok, now you are walking down the corridor playing mine detector and the trogs are appearently hiding, or was that just a ghost sound? Remember, you hear strange sounds all the time. If you went into full combat mode every time you heard something you didn't recognize, you would be a nervous wreck. You are still going to be cautious, and check it out though.

If a trog is hiding, they have a chance to get the drop on you. Yes, I know you are looking for them. As a DM, I would give bonus to spot checks. You are being cautious, but are not in combat, so you can't fight defensively. When the trog attacks or when you spot it is when you roll initive. How this starts depends on who is deciding to act.

Case 1: you see trog. I assume the trog is watching you and notices you spot him. If every one sees every one, roll initive, no surprize. Trog ambush has failed. If the trog gets a higher initive, he can hit you before you are really ready. If not for uncanny dodge, you wouldn't have dex. As it is, you can't be already fighting defensively, since you weren't in combat untill now. Chances are you win initive, since you probably have high dex and improved init.

Case 2: you or your friend spot trog. You bluff so that he doesn't think he is spotted, or your friend spots him and the trog doesn't see your friend. Now you have a "some combatents are aware" so there is a surprized round action for those who are aware. Chances are your friend sees the ambush and springs it by shooting at trog. If you didn't see trog, you and trog roll initive.

Case 3: you and your friend miss the trog. The trog now has the jump on you. Since he knows where you are exactly, he can get a surprize round on you. You would lose dex, if not for uncanny dodge, but you definately can't be on the defensive. After that, roll initive and resolve normally.

The reasoning behind not being able to perform combat manuver outside of combat is due to the combat mechanic. If you can defend yourself well against everything all the time, you have uncanny dodge, not the defensive fighting manuver. It would make most ambushes fail. If you are on guard, you have a better chance of not being surprised, but do not make it pointless to try to surprize you.

 

[Tom Cashel]

Toe: Spot isn't the only way to be aware of an enemy. Trogs are quite stinky. If you're at all aware of an enemy's presence, they cannot surprise.

Lucius: You're absolutely right. Even as I posted I wondered about that...

 

[Mercule]

2. Combat begins when the DM asks for an initiative roll (Usually when PCs or NPCs intend a hostile move, but that's up to the DM).

I'm afraid I wasn't entirely clear on what I'm looking for.

This is essentially the question I'm asking, both as a player on behalf of his DM and as a DM myself (we are each players in the other's game and we try to keep our rulings similar).

So, to rephrase my original question, at what point should initiative have been rolled in this encounter?

What I was really hoping to get out of each of my points listed was that I could see each of them as being the point at which surprise or initiative would be rolled and the game move into combat rounds. Hopefully that's clearer, now.

 

[LokiDR]

When you are aware of a specific enemy or the enemy is firing at you. It is smelly here doesn't suffice. It would if you had the scent ability. Vague noises don't work either. It would if you had blindsight or tremorsense.

The crux is "when I can do something specific to an enemy" like take cover from a specific enemy or fight myself.

 

[Tom Cashel]

I agree with Loki.

 

[Darklone]

I had the problem with walking around with full defense too and adressed it like this:

- It grants a dodge bonus. A dodge bonus is lost if you are flatfooted or if you lose your dex bonus. Uncanny dodge lets you retain your dex bonus, but probably not the dodge bonus.
- Hidden enemies may surprise you. You may know that they are there, but it's just like invisible enemies. You have spot and listen checks though to "locate" them and anticipate the incoming attack.