Surprise, Initiative, and Encounter Distance

[LokiDR]

If you want to start initive when you smell a foul odor or hear distant talking (not just through the door you are standing at) you would be a nervous wreck. A DM should have little things scurry all the time. Then rolling initive gets real old real fast.

If you heard the creatures, then you are on guard. Rolling initive is a tip off, just like asking players to roll listen checks. There would be little to no chance of ever having a combat that can surprize the group, which means that your uncanny dodge wouldn't come up, or your good initive rolls. Then you are wandering around with +6 AC all the time. That gets boring, and an invisible wizard with Ghost sound could play with you for hours.

Initive should be reserved for when you have a definate threat. If an arrow flies out of the darkness, even if you can't see the enemy, you roll initive so you can take cover before the enemy shoots again. If you see a hiding monster, you roll initive. If you hear something behind a door, you roll when you open the door, because you won't be surprised by the enemy but they might not be surprized by you.

 

[LostSoul]

If you want to start initive when you smell a foul odor or hear distant talking (not just through the door you are standing at) you would be a nervous wreck.

If I was wandering through a dark dungeon, filled with creatures that can see in the dark and would love to eat the flesh off my bones, I'd be getting ready to fight after every noise I heard.

Rolling initive is a tip off, just like asking players to roll listen checks. There would be little to no chance of ever having a combat that can surprize the group, which means that your uncanny dodge wouldn't come up, or your good initive rolls.

You can still be sursprised if you have no idea something's there - by failing a Listen check or Spot check.

What would you do if the PCs were sneaking up on a bandit camp, the Rogue sneaks in to open the back gate, and the Archer player says, "I ready an action to shoot any bandit that looks at the Rogue"? Since initiative hasn't been rolled yet...

As well, those Trogs can't Ready actions yet, even though they know the PCs are there, because no initiative has been rolled. I say roll Init as soon as possible.

 

[LokiDR]

If I was wandering through a dark dungeon, filled with creatures that can see in the dark and would love to eat the flesh off my bones, I'd be getting ready to fight after every noise I heard.

You wouldn't be very fun to be around then, jumping at every sound. Adventurers are like teenagers, they think they are invincible. If that isn't the case, the game starts to feel more like Call of Cthulu than D&D. Pick your game style.

You can still be sursprised if you have no idea something's there - by failing a Listen check or Spot check.

What would you do if the PCs were sneaking up on a bandit camp, the Rogue sneaks in to open the back gate, and the Archer player says, "I ready an action to shoot any bandit that looks at the Rogue"? Since initiative hasn't been rolled yet...

As well, those Trogs can't Ready actions yet, even though they know the PCs are there, because no initiative has been rolled. I say roll Init as soon as possible.

Archer wants to nail the guard before the guard raises an alarm. With ready action, there is no chance for the guard to raise the alarm. What is the point in that? If you have to roll initive, the archer has a good chance to peg the guy, but the guard also has a good chance to yell. The first is too easy, the second has an element of danger, which this situation should. Ready action out of combat, that being both sides are in combat, is just cheap and not really fun in the end.

 

[Stalker0]

Archer wants to nail the guard before the guard raises an alarm. With ready action, there is no chance for the guard to raise the alarm. What is the point in that? If you have to roll initive, the archer has a good chance to peg the guy, but the guard also has a good chance to yell. The first is too easy, the second has an element of danger, which this situation should. Ready action out of combat, that being both sides are in combat, is just cheap and not really fun in the end.

Archer wants to try to assasinate teh guard so that his party can sneak into the rogue camp. But with his inititative and no readied actions, there's a good chance he'd fail. What's the point in that?

A well prepared, well thought out plan should have definate results, where's in your scenario its variable. Then it comes down not to roleplaying and planning, but to dice rolling.

 

[Relic]

What would you do if the PCs were sneaking up on a bandit camp, the Rogue sneaks in to open the back gate, and the Archer player says, "I ready an action to shoot any bandit that looks at the Rogue"? Since initiative hasn't been rolled yet...

I would have the archer and the bandit roll initiative giving the archer a bonus to his/her initiative for preparation. The archer is more likely to react faster and take a shot at the bandit before the bandit can draw breath to raise an alarm but there is still a chance that the bandit is too quick in reacting for the archer to silence him before the alarm is raised.

There would still be no readied action, especially since it is a broad focus (there could be any number of bandits and the archer is going to scan all of them constantly looking for a change in reaction... too broad to focus on one specific point, therefore... no readied action). Likewise, no readied action because initiative (i.e. combat) has not been started.

 

[Aaron2]

Normally your right, but rogues have uncanny dodge, which means they would have a +4 to AC all the time!!

Uncanny Dodge lets them keep Dex bonuses, not Dodge bonuses. It also does not prevent them from being flat-footed.


Aaron

 

[LokiDR]

Archer wants to try to assasinate teh guard so that his party can sneak into the rogue camp. But with his inititative and no readied actions, there's a good chance he'd fail. What's the point in that?

A well prepared, well thought out plan should have definate results, where's in your scenario its variable. Then it comes down not to roleplaying and planning, but to dice rolling.

I agree with Relic. Your archer is not so amazing to be able to shoot any one of a number of guards after they so much as glance at the rogue.

As for the larger issue of game play, a definate plan should in no way ever garentee success. Plans can be very risky, and sneaking into a camp sounds inherently risky. If you know the results ahead of time, why are you playing this game? Risk nothing, gain nothing. Without a plan, you are in realy bad shape, with a plan you have a chance. Without the risk, you might as well be playing Progress Quest.

 

[Tom Cashel]

Uncanny Dodge lets them keep Dex bonuses, not Dodge bonuses. It also does not prevent them from being flat-footed.

"Uncanny Dodge: At 3rd level and above, she retains her Dexterity bonus to AC (if any) if caught flat-footed or struck by an invisible attacker."

True, but it's close enough.

 

[Stalker0]

"Uncanny Dodge: At 3rd level and above, she retains her Dexterity bonus to AC (if any) if caught flat-footed or struck by an invisible attacker."

True, but it's close enough.

And you lose dodge bonuses when you lose your dex bonus, it doesn't specify flat footed.

 

[LokiDR]

If you have dex, you have dodge. Now what happens if you lose dex to your haste AC bonus?

I have noticed Uncanny Dodge is really powerfull ability. When it comes to initive, an average rogue with improved initive is really hard to beat.