Surprise, Initiative, and Encounter Distance

[Aaron2]

If you have dex, you have dodge.

"A condition that makes the character lose his or her Dexterity bonus to Armor Class (if any) also makes the character lose dodge bonuses."

It is the condition that causes loss of dodge, not the state of the character's Dex bonus. A character that is flat-footed loses his Dodge bonus regardless if Uncanny Dodge lets him keep his Dex bonus.

BTW- you can use Combat Maneuvers outside of combat. To say otherwise would mean characters can't draw their weapon or fire a bow unless they could see an opponent nearby. The DMG comment was a suggestion (hence the "Don't allows players") and not a rule (such as "Characters cannot").


Aaron

 

[LokiDR]

"A condition that makes the character lose his or her Dexterity bonus to Armor Class (if any) also makes the character lose dodge bonuses."

It is the condition that causes loss of dodge, not the state of the character's Dex bonus. A character that is flat-footed loses his Dodge bonus regardless if Uncanny Dodge lets him keep his Dex bonus.

BTW- you can use Combat Maneuvers outside of combat. To say otherwise would mean characters can't draw their weapon or fire a bow unless they could see an opponent nearby. The DMG comment was a suggestion (hence the "Don't allows players") and not a rule (such as "Characters cannot").


Aaron

When you have uncanny dodge, being flat footed is not a "condition that makes the character lose his or her Dexterity bonus to Armor Class" so you don't lose dodge either. The statment links dodge and dex, the way they should be.

As for you combat maneuver statements, I think you splitting hairs and missing the point. Drawing your sword isn't a "combat manuver", it is an action. You can shoot a bow out of combat, it's called practice. You can't flank an oppent out of combat, or bull rush, or ready an action.

And yes, "don't allow" sounds pretty much like a rule, not a suggestion.

 

[LostSoul]

I agree with Relic. Your archer is not so amazing to be able to shoot any one of a number of guards after they so much as glance at the rogue.

What if the archer specifies a single guard? Then he's already got the guard lined up in his sight, and all he's got to do is loose the arrow. Should he still have to roll initiative, letting the guard take a full round's worth of actions before he can let the arrow go?

 

[tburdett]

You wouldn't be very fun to be around then, jumping at every sound. Adventurers are like teenagers, they think they are invincible. If that isn't the case, the game starts to feel more like Call of Cthulu than D&D. Pick your game style.



Archer wants to nail the guard before the guard raises an alarm. With ready action, there is no chance for the guard to raise the alarm. What is the point in that? If you have to roll initive, the archer has a good chance to peg the guy, but the guard also has a good chance to yell. The first is too easy, the second has an element of danger, which this situation should. Ready action out of combat, that being both sides are in combat, is just cheap and not really fun in the end.

The archer should get a surprise round attack if the bandit is surprised. No initiative.

 

[LokiDR]

What if the archer specifies a single guard? Then he's already got the guard lined up in his sight, and all he's got to do is loose the arrow. Should he still have to roll initiative, letting the guard take a full round's worth of actions before he can let the arrow go?

If the DM wants to consider aproaching an armed camp as being aware of enemies, that works too. Then you are in combat, and this is a mute point. This leads, however, to every infiltration having a very good chances, which doesn't seem right. Also, how many people can you cover with a ready action?

I would say that if you are sneaking into a large camp, you are not in initive, as Relic pointed out, being too broad in focus. If you are sneaking past one specific guard at a gate, though, the situation warrents different handling.

The point remains, if you are not in combat rounds, being the aware side, you can not ready an action. If you are, then we are discussing the ready action.

 

[shilsen]

Then you are in combat, and this is a mute point.

Considering how much people are saying about this, it's hardly mute, is it? But it could be moot, however

Brought to you courtesy of your friendly neighbourhood English teacher/pedant/nitpicker.

 

[Tom Cashel]

Well, it's definitely "moot," since the word actually means "open for debate." Only in the vernacular has the word "moot" taken on the opposite meaning of "not worth discussion." Damn vernaculites.

-Editing Tom
"Nit-Pickier Than Thou"

Edit: Editor, edit thyself!

moot adj.
Subject to debate; arguable: a moot question.

Law
1. Without legal significance, through having been previously decided or settled.
2. Of no practical importance; irrelevant.

 

[Relic]

Here is I would handle the whole "sneaking into camp with archer providing cover" scenario, with examples provided.

The Sneaking PC (SPC) would make Hide and Move Silently checks while the bandits would make Spot and Listen checks. The Spot and Listen checks for the bandits might suffer a penalty if I (as the DM) determine if they are not really all that alert. So we have the SPC with a Hide check result of 22 and a Move Silently check of 24. The bandits rolled 17 and 11 for their respective Spot and Listen checks. Thus, the SPC moves just to the outskirts of the bandit camp.

The archer PC (APC), with a predatory awareness, scans the bandits, looking for some form of reaction to spotting the SPC (if the SPC is spotted, that is). And that is just what happens.

A bandit gets up from the campfire to go find a bush.... a bush that the SPC is currently hiding behind. Since the bandit is in a different circumstance than previous I reroll his Spot check (and would probably give the SPC the option of rerolling his Hide roll or keeping his previous roll; in this case we will keep the previous roll). This time he gets a 24... noticing the SPC (who had a Hide of 22).

Combat will now commence, with the following happening:

First: the APC gets a surprise round against the standing bandit. The bandit is not aware of the APC and the APC has had plenty of time to follow and focus on the bandit. The APC shoots an arrow at the bandit. If the APC does enough damage to kill the bandit I would have the bandit make a Reflex save vs a DC of the damage dealt + Dex modifier (to represent the quick reaction of the APC) to see if he cries out and alerts the other bandits.

Second (first combat round): Initiative is rolled for the APC, the SPC, and the one bandit (assuming he survived and called out to alert the other bandits). The other bandits are not able to have any action this round they trip and stumble and hurry to get up (i.e. they are surprised).

Third (second combat round): There is now initiative for the APC, the SPC, and all bandits.

If the APC is shooting at the bandits I would have the APC roll a Hide check (probably with a bonus as he is outside of the light of the campfire [i.e. hard to see into darkness when you are bathed in light]). The bandits would be flat-footed against the APC until they Spot him.

Combat would proceed as normal from this point on.

 

[LokiDR]

Relic, I like your example, but I think there a few points you are missing about initive. First, I think that camp at large is not surprized, they are not in the combat yet. If they are in the area, they are surprized as far as being shot, but their initive should be as new combatants entering the fray. Next, the rest of camp would come in at the top of initive order, as new combatants always do.

I think another way to handle this situation, which would have the same result, is to roll initive for the APC and SPC when the guard walked toward the bush. They have full rounds if they can hear/see him comming. They aren't dealing with the camp at large now, just the lone guard. The APC can ready action on that one guard to spot the SPC. If the SPC is spotted, initive is rolled for the guard but the archer will go right before him. The SPC can also ready action, if he wants, to hit the guard or run.

I think the difference of the whole camp vs. lone guard is a good distinction for rolling initive. In the case of the whole guard group spotting the SPC, I would call for initive when he was spotted.