Surprise, Initiative, and Encounter Distance

[Stalker0]

The way I handle total defense is to say you have to be aware of something to be defensive about. Until you know something is there to be guarded against, even an invisible creature, then you can't use total defense.

I disagree with Tom about readied actions. Its only a standard action, and you can ready an action against preety much any condition. So I would allow you to move and have an action readied to attack the first thing that you see. (your dm may not let you get very specific, it depends on him)

However, if the Trog surprised you, I would have you lose that readied action, although a house rule could be that you keep it if you have combat reflexes.

Combat for you begins when you become aware of a definate threat. Here's how I do it.

1) If you become aware of your enemy before they are aware of you, you immediately get a partial action (surprise round). This could be attacking, or it could be jumping behind a rock. You are entitled to all combat tactics now. Whether you need to roll initiative at this point really depends on your dm.

2) If the enemy is still not aware of you, which is entirely possible if you don't take hostile actions immediatley, then you can start taking full round actions to prepare. I rule that if this is done, you won't be flatfooted when combat starts, your dm may feel differently.

3) Once the enemy has become aware of you, everyone rolls initiative and normal combat begins.



So for your scenario, let's say you were aware of trogs (a listen check to hear one of them talking).
1) You now get a partial action, you choose:

a) A partial charge. This is a surprise round. The trogs are flatfooted. You finish your action, and then everyone rolls initiative. And since they are trogs and your a lonely rogue, you die

b) A strategic retreat: You move silently back to your friends. Either:

 

[KnowTheToe]

The reason you cannot walk around in defense mode is because defensive fighting is a style choice you make on your initiative. If you are lower in initiative than your attackers, you only react and don't make the choice of defensively fighting off your opponent. You do not have enough composure to do it.

 

[Stalker0]

The way I handle total defense is to say you have to be aware of something to be defensive about. Until you know something is there to be guarded against, even an invisible creature, then you can't use total defense.

I disagree with Tom about readied actions. Its only a standard action, and you can ready an action against preety much any condition. So I would allow you to move and have an action readied to attack the first thing that you see. (your dm may not let you get very specific, it depends on him)

However, if the Trog surprised you, I would have you lose that readied action, although a house rule could be that you keep it if you have combat reflexes.

Combat for you begins when you become aware of a definate threat. Here's how I do it.

1) If you become aware of your enemy before they are aware of you, you immediately get a partial action (surprise round). This could be attacking, or it could be jumping behind a rock. You are entitled to all combat tactics now. Whether you need to roll initiative at this point really depends on your dm.

2) If the enemy is still not aware of you, which is entirely possible if you don't take hostile actions immediatley, then you can start taking full round actions to prepare. I rule that if this is done, you won't be flatfooted when combat starts, your dm may feel differently.

3) Once the enemy has become aware of you, everyone rolls initiative and normal combat begins.



So for your scenario, let's say you were aware of trogs (a listen check to hear one of them talking).
1) You now get a partial action, you choose:

a) A partial charge. This is a surprise round. The trogs are flatfooted. You finish your action, and then everyone rolls initiative. And since they are trogs and your a lonely rogue, you die

b) A strategic retreat: You move silently back to your friends. Either:
I) Your succesful. The trogs are unaware of you. You alert your friends, and then can start preparing for the trogs. If the trogs still don't hear you, you have some time to set up things.
II) You failed. The trogs hear you and now you and the trogs roll initiative. You are not flatfooted no matter what you roll.

That's a basic outline of what goes on. It seems like a lot, but most of it is common sense when you read through it.


Also on the issue of surprise, sure you can be surprised. Those roguish trogs (you never know can bust out move silently and hide just as you can. If they beat your listen and spot, then they could sneak up on you. Of course, you could do the same.

 

[Tom Cashel]

I disagree with Tom about readied actions. Its only a standard action, and you can ready an action against preety much any condition. So I would allow you to move and have an action readied to attack the first thing that you see. (your dm may not let you get very specific, it depends on him)

As Loki established in exhaustive detail, you can't use combat actions outside of combat. However, you are correct about being able to move while an action is readied...as long as combat is in progress.

From the combat actions page of the SRD, salient points highlighted:

Ready [Standard][AoO: No]

Description: The ready action lets a combatant prepare to take an action later, after a combatant's turn is over but before a combatant's next one has begun. Readying is a standard action, so a combatant can move as well. It does not provoke an attack of opportunity (though the action that a combatant readies might do so).

Only partial actions can be readied. See the table in the description of "Start full round action" for a list of standard partial actions.

Specify the partial action a combatant will take and the conditions under which it will be taken. When those conditions are met, the combatant may take the readied partial action. The partial action comes before the action that triggers it.

 

[Mercule]

Okay, I obviously still haven't made myself clear. I've probably provided too much detail.

I'm not trying to do combat actions outside of combat. I'm trying to figure out when it's "combat". It pretty much boils down to surprise and initiative.

 

[Tom Cashel]

Loki answered that a long time ago. When does combat begin?

When you are aware of a specific enemy or the enemy is firing at you.

The crux is "when I can do something specific to an enemy" like take cover from a specific enemy or fight myself.

In other words, as soon as a PC says "I attack," or an enemy attacks, the DM should call for initiative rolls.

PCs or enemies who are surprised don't get any actions during the first (surprise) round. In the following rounds everyone rolls initiative and acts normally.

 

[Stalker0]

I'm still going to disagree with you Tom. The quote you gave just shows when the readied action can take place. That doesn't always mean combat.

For instance, I can ready an action to catch something a friend throws at me. As a dm, I don't usually boil such mundane actions to that kind of rigor, but its the same thing IMO.

Besides if you know a trogs in the next round and you ready an action to shoot it when it comes in, then I see no problem with that, even if combat hasn't officially started yet.

 

[Lucius Foxhound]

That's not what Tom's saying. Tom is saying you roll initiative at that point. Readying an action doesn't require an initiative roll.

 

[LokiDR]

Loki answered that a long time ago. When does combat begin?



In other words, as soon as a PC says "I attack," or an enemy attacks, the DM should call for initiative rolls.

PCs or enemies who are surprised don't get any actions during the first (surprise) round. In the following rounds everyone rolls initiative and acts normally.

Thanks Tom. Glad I am being quoted

As for readied actions though, I don't think they can be taken outsided of a initive order. If you know it is there, you surprise it. If you don't know it is there, you shouldn't get an action against it. Silly though it seems, could a person walk through a dungeon constantly holding action for "an invisible enemy to appear"? If he knows or believes invisible enemies to be near, it still doesn't make much sense, unless he wants to shoot randomly.

 

[Lucius Foxhound]

No, you couldn't hold an action for an invisible enemy to appear while you walk through a dungeon. You're already taking an action -- you're moving.

However, I think it'd be prefectly reasonable to have a crossbow cocked and readied, aimed at a door with the readied action, "I shoot the first thing that comes through that door." You could stand there all day and wait... And hell, if you had a Golem do it, they wouldn't need to sleep, so they could automatically catch whatever comes through as flatfooted.