Surprise within a round?

[Water Bob]

I've got an encounter I'm planning for my next game, and I'm not quite sure how I should play it, by the rules.

The scenario is this: The PCs will hear some screams from that top of the hill, and I expect they'll rush up there to investigate.

Once they get there, they'll see a wagon turned on its side, the two asses that were pulling it are dead and dying--a javeling clearly sticking out of the neck of one of the beasts. A couple of bodies laying about (dead or unconscious children). And, beyond the sided wagon, an enemy who is standing over an old woman--the children's protector. She's got a javelin pierced through her left hand, stapling her to the ground. She's making noises--out of it. And the bad guy that standing over her will have his spear to her throat.

I plan on rolling initiative as soon as the PCs up the hill and see the scene. The bad guy with the spear will do a ready action to pierce the woman's throat, while yelling at the PCs how he will kill her if they come any closer.

All of this is no problem. What I'm curious about, is this...

Behind the upturned wagon, unseen by the PCs is a second enemy. I want him to pop up at some point and toss a javelin at one of the PCs.

How do you play this, within the rules?





If this were at the beginning of the round, the hidden enemy would Surprise the PCs. But, by the time he does what he's going to do, we'll definitely be in tactical combat because of the first enemy, standing over the downed old lady.

Is the hidden bad guy using a Delay action? And, there's no benefit to surprise in the middle of a round, huh?

Comments on how I should run this, given the rules?

 

[xigbar]

Have the other guy make a Hide check beforehand. If he's hidden well enough, your players are flatfooted.

 

[Jimlock]

First off, I understand how you want to play out the scene/encounter cinematically, and I understand this completely. I'd probably start the encounter the same way you plan to...

However, there is an actual chance that the baddy will hear the party rushing up hill. This would change things a lot, because the baddy will have more time to prepare.

As far as the hidden enemy goes, he's part of the encounter from round 1 because he is also aware of the party (either he heard of them talking to the one with the spear or he simply listened to them rushing towards the wagon). Only difference is that he elects to remain hidden and strike later on. Simply play him by his initiative and bring him into battle whenever you want. Because he is hidden, the party member he attacks first should be treated as flat-footed in respect to him for that single attack.

 

[Sekhmet]

Bandit #2 is hidden behind a wagon and can enter into combat at any time he wishes, granting him one surprise round, and then he will roll initiative at the beginning of the next turn.

He is not a part of the combat until he takes an action.
A more common example is that you encounter a group of three humans, a fighter, a druid, and a wizard.
You prepare to engage in combat - you're aware of them and they are not aware of you just yet.

One of your party makes too much noise and the Druid hears you, alerting his party. Both parties are alert now, and neither gets a surprise round.

Except the enemy party also had a rogue, who had noticed you sneaking up and was already behind you.
He is not a part of the encounter yet, as no one is aware of him. Your party will be effectively surprised by him.
Only he will act in the surprise round.

 

[Jimlock]

He is not a part of the combat until he takes an action.

But he does take action so as to remain hidden. Moreover he is aware of the party.
Treating him as "inactive" until he enters the combat would mean that he remains flat-footed until then... and that doesn't make cense because he is aware of the party from round 1.

 

[anest1s]

Bandit #2 is hidden behind a wagon and can enter into combat at any time he wishes, granting him one surprise round, and then he will roll initiative at the beginning of the next turn.

He is not a part of the combat until he takes an action.
A more common example is that you encounter a group of three humans, a fighter, a druid, and a wizard.
You prepare to engage in combat - you're aware of them and they are not aware of you just yet.

One of your party makes too much noise and the Druid hears you, alerting his party. Both parties are alert now, and neither gets a surprise round.

Except the enemy party also had a rogue, who had noticed you sneaking up and was already behind you.
He is not a part of the encounter yet, as no one is aware of him. Your party will be effectively surprised by him.
Only he will act in the surprise round.

Someone who joins an ongoing battle plays first on the next round, if I recall correctly.

You mean that it goes like this?
-You play (lets assume you got the initiative
-Enemies play
-You play
-Rogue pops up-Surprise round (Rogue rolls initiative for next round, and wins everyone)
-Enemies play
-Rogue plays
-You play
-Enemies play

I find it too generous to give the rogue more than one attack on flat footed targets...

 

[Sekhmet]

If a Rogue Hides in the woods, and no one is around to notice it, is he in combat?
The simple answer is "No."

Treat him as either a new combatant or give him the surprise round he deserves and -then- treat him as a new combatant.

 

[Sekhmet]

Someone who joins an ongoing battle plays first on the next round, if I recall correctly.

You mean that it goes like this?
-You play (lets assume you got the initiative
-Enemies play
-You play
-Rogue pops up-Surprise round (Rogue rolls initiative for next round, and wins everyone)
-Enemies play
-Rogue plays
-You play
-Enemies play

I find it too generous to give the rogue more than one attack on flat footed targets...

Rogue waits five feet from his target - takes a five foot step next round and SA's the Wizard five times (GTWF).

Determine which characters are aware of their opponents at the start of the battle. If some but not all of the combatants are aware of their opponents, a surprise round happens before regular rounds of combat begin. The combatants who are aware of the opponents can act in the surprise round, so they roll for initiative. In initiative order (highest to lowest), combatants who started the battle aware of their opponents each take one action (either a standard action or a move action) during the surprise round. Combatants who were unaware do not get to act in the surprise round. If no one or everyone starts the battle aware, there is no surprise round.

It is obvious that combat as not happened in either the Rogue/Parties example or the Bandit example, and it is also obvious that one person is aware of his opponent without them being aware of him.

The Rogue or the Bandit are awarded a surprise round before combat begins, in which they can perform a standard or a move action.

 

[Water Bob]

Because he is hidden, the party member he attacks first should be treated as flat-footed in respect to him for that single attack.

Have the other guy make a Hide check beforehand. If he's hidden well enough, your players are flatfooted.

OK, this confuses me a bit. You can have a Surprise round in the middle of a combat?

Let's say, Round 1, the players move, and Baddie #1 readies his action to pierce grandma.

Round 2, two PCs move, then Badguy #2 pops up and throws the javelin at one of the PCs that has already moved...twice.

You're telling me that, even though the PC has been in combat now for two rounds, he's considered flat-footed to the new javelin attack from the previously unknown baddie?

 

[Sekhmet]

Combat has not been initiated.
No spells have flown, no arrows loosed, no swords brought to bear.
The PC's are free to act how they wish, the NPC's are free to act how the DM wishes.
During the PC's turn, their Paladin might start making a grand speech "UNHAND THEM OR FACE THE WRATH OF BLIPDOOLPOOP", and the Bandit might spear Granny because he's confused about a Paladin of Blipdoolpoop immediately afterward, regardless of the initiative roll.
I think the error in your thinking is that you make them roll initiative before the combat.

Think about a real world application for a moment. Three thugs in an alley face off against Batman. The thugs tell Batman that he needs to back off or they'll hurt the kitten they've got captured.
Batman looks stoically at them.
And then, from behind, Jackie Chan uses Pounce (because he's a Wolf Totem Barbarian in this example) from charging behind them at 90 ft. per round (Because he's a NinjaMonkBarbarianScoutwithHaste).

Why does Jackie Chan not get his surprise hit? No one saw him coming, no one knew he was there.