Surprise!

[Chris_Nightwing]

I don't know if there's a thread about the recent L&L column, but I'm sure there's a discussion to be had about surprise.

Firstly, ignoring any mechanics, do you think that surprise should be 'absolute', as in, if you are surprised then you definitely can't act before those who surprise you?

Secondly, if you answered yes to the first question, should those who surprise you be potentially able to act twice?

If you answered No at first, then I suggest that a light bonus/penalty, or advantage/disadvantage, to initiative would be a good choice. If you answered Yes, then No, then a bonus/penalty to initiative so great that it cannot be overcome (or easier, a group resolving initiative before another group) would be a good choice. If you answered Yes, then Yes, then you probably like the surprise round followed by initiative.

Also, to clear up a troubling point, if new combatants join the frey then who, really, makes them roll initiative relative to existing combatants? The numbers don't matter, initiative is entirely ordinal, and once rolled you should forget the values and insert new groups before or after existing groups as is sensible (rolling initiative within those groups if they are mixed combatants).

 

[TerraDave]

Surprise and win initiative: go twice

 

[delericho]

I was perhaps one of few, but I liked the original surprise rule (though I would have done it the other way around - gain surprise and get a +20 bonus). In particular, I liked that it eliminated the need for the 3e/4e rules where in the surprise round you only got one action.

That said, the "advantage" rules suggest what is probably a better rule: surprise gives you advantage on your initiative check, and if you win initiative you also get advantage in the first round.

 

[Ahnehnois]

Mechanically, being able to do a lot when you surprise people is really important for making rogues powerful.

More importantly, quick and lethal surprise attacks help move the game forward and are a common trope in action adventure stories.

More importantly, in terms of simulation, being surprised is really a big deal. It's entirely likely that people who are truly surprised, even if they are armed and generally expecting danger, will take a significant amount of time to react.

 

[Neonchameleon]

There should be two levels of surprise. The surprise faced by an adventuring party creeping through and primed for trouble is not the same as that faced by a group of people, swords sheathed at the most, and busy chatting and/or eating. The first should be a standard action and flat footed, or even just +20 to initiative. The second on the other hand should be incredibly powerful.

 

[Chris_Nightwing]

Mechanically, being able to do a lot when you surprise people is really important for making rogues powerful.

More importantly, quick and lethal surprise attacks help move the game forward and are a common trope in action adventure stories.

More importantly, in terms of simulation, being surprised is really a big deal. It's entirely likely that people who are truly surprised, even if they are armed and generally expecting danger, will take a significant amount of time to react.

I think the problem with giving a surprise round and then rolling initiative is that it feels clunky. Much rather just let any aware combatant be in front of any unaware combatant - perhaps even giving advantage on attacks for this. It does limit the Rogue to one surprise attack, but I think it's cleaner and works well with rules for introducing new combatants.

 

[Ahnehnois]

I think the problem with giving a surprise round and then rolling initiative is that it feels clunky. Much rather just let any aware combatant be in front of any unaware combatant - perhaps even giving advantage on attacks for this. It does limit the Rogue to one surprise attack, but I think it's cleaner and works well with rules for introducing new combatants.

Never felt clunky to me; it's all a matter of taste.

Perhaps, w/ regards to [MENTION=87792]Neonchameleon[/MENTION] 's post above, the surprise round should take effect only when the victims are not even expecting trouble and are completely surprised, as opposed to simply unaware of one attack.

 

[Dausuul]

Yes and yes. Surprise should be a big deal. PCs should be willing to go to some lengths to gain surprise over their opponents, and to avoid being ambushed.

In principle, I agree that there should be a difference between surprise for a party warily advancing through a dungeon versus a party snoozing in the inn. However, I'm not sure how to determine fairly which is the case. I mean, if I as DM ask my players, "Are you guys on alert right now?" I know what the answer is going to be. Of course they're on alert, they're always on alert, even if they've spent the last week in a forest full of unicorns and friendly elves guarded by an army of planetars*. There needs to be a cost to declaring yourself on alert 24/7.

[SIZE=-2]*Although, to be fair, any seasoned adventurer would be on alert in this particular situation. It fairly screams "mind-screw adventure."[/SIZE]

 

[P1NBACK]

I want surprise to be a really big deal. Ambushing people should be an absolutely ridiculous advantage.

Advantage attack bonus and double damage sounds about right.

Because of this, I would prefer a surprise round that acts as the first round of combat, with a chance to go twice after the ambushed party starts to gain their bearing.

 

[Chris_Nightwing]

For those people that want devastating surprise rounds, are you ok with the same happening to your PCs? Enemies maybe getting two attacks, or double damage as someone mentioned?

Oh and I think that there is already a difference between surprising the armed guards to surprising the feasting guards - the latter must spend movement and actions to get up, get their weapons and so forth. Perhaps the costs of getting up from prone/sitting and drawing a weapon are not high enough?