Surprise!

[delericho]

I think our definitions of "surprise" need to be standardized.

I'm inclined to agree.

Scenario 1: A hidden assassin backstabs a totally unaware target.
The target can't possibly act before the assassin, because he doesn't even know that the assassin is there until the knife enters him.

In other words, the defender is completely unaware of the attacker until the attack is made.

In a 'normal' adventuring context, I think this is actually very unlikely to occur - when working in a hostile environment (as adventures are wont to do), the character will always have his wits about him to some extent.

So, unless the attacker is really well hidden, or the defender is unusually unaware (asleep or drugged, perhaps), then I don't think this would really apply.

Scenario 2: A small group of kobolds drops down into melee range of an unaware party and attacks.
Since the kobolds reveal themselves before they act, the PCs can act first if they are quick enough.

I think this is the more normal situation that the 'surprise' rules in 3e, 4e and now the playtest are trying to model.

The "surprise round" system works best for something like #1 , but isn't perfect for #2 .

I agree. That's why I'm in favour of 'normal' surprise giving a bonus to initiative (or, better, advantage), rather than a round of free actions.

However, I do think that perhaps there should be some sort of "advanced surprise" rules for the latter case.

Scenario 3: A fighter kicks in the door and finds 40 unaware kobolds.

Scenario 4: The party peeks around the corner and sees an unaware mob of zombies. On the count of three, they charge around the corner into combat.

Well, in both of these cases the character has to in some way reveal himself before attacking, either by bashing down the door or by charging out.

Plus, the attackers are not "really well hidden" (just normally hidden ), so 'normal' surprise applies.

Scenario 5: As the party is walking through the dungeon, the guy in front walks into a gelatinous cube.

That should probably be handled as an exception in our exception-based design - treat the cube as a trap until detected.

Scenario 6: A wizard/rogue is having a pleasant conversation with a charmed NPC. Suddenly, the rogue plunges his knife into the NPC. The rogue's player wants to know if it counts as a sneak attack.

Assuming a 'normal' adventuring context, I'd rule that because they're in a hostile environment, the NPC remains alert for threats... and although he didn't expect the threat to come from his 'friend', he's still not truly unawares - 'normal' surprise applies.

However, this is why I like the "advantage on initiative, and then advantage if you win initiative" rule I suggested in my first post in this thread - it does seem very harsh that the PC doesn't get his sneak attack in this case.

(Incidentally, if the "pleasant conversation" were taking place in a town or other 'safe' environment, then there's no reason the NPC would be particularly alert for threats... and so "advanced surprise" would apply.)

 

[Chris_Nightwing]

[MENTION=22424]delericho[/MENTION] Perhaps we could adopt a videogame convention (gasp) - you are either aware of an enemy (red!), wary that an enemy is or might be nearby (yellow!) or oblivious to enemies (green!).

Red cannot be surprised (they are aware of you), yellow can be surprised and you get your initiative bonus/advantage, and green can be surprised to devastating effect.

 

[delericho]

[MENTION=22424]delericho[/MENTION] Perhaps we could adopt a videogame convention (gasp) - you are either aware of an enemy (red!), wary that an enemy is or might be nearby (yellow!) or oblivious to enemies (green!).

Red cannot be surprised (they are aware of you), yellow can be surprised and you get your initiative bonus/advantage, and green can be surprised to devastating effect.

Seems reasonable. Incidentally, this mirrors 5e's three levels of light, and the matching degrees of "who can hide". So I like it.

(Also, I have no problem whatsoever with stealing good ideas from video games.)

 

[Mishihari Lord]

I like the "severe" option. First surprise is a really big deal in a real fight. In some circumstances a D&D coup-de-gras would be a more accurate simulation than just getting free attacks. Second, it fits with some of the books I most enjoy. In Glen Cook's The Black Company, Croaker and Raven (basically low level soldiers in D&D terms) take down take down Whisper and Limper (approximately an archmage and a lich) because they got surprise on them with some enchanted arrows. Third, it can add a lot of tension. In the previous example, if the good guys hadn't hit with both arrows the bad guys would have turned them into thin read smears instantly.

 

[P1NBACK]

[MENTION=22424]delericho[/MENTION] Perhaps we could adopt a videogame convention (gasp) - you are either aware of an enemy (red!), wary that an enemy is or might be nearby (yellow!) or oblivious to enemies (green!).

Red cannot be surprised (they are aware of you), yellow can be surprised and you get your initiative bonus/advantage, and green can be surprised to devastating effect.

The Adventurer Conqueror King System does something similar to this.

Monsters are either "actively" alert, "passively" alert or "distracted". It's impossible to surprise an active monster (unless you're a Thief), but they cannot maintain that state for long and eventually revert to passive, which is harder to surprise than distracted monsters.

 

[howandwhy99]

Here's the thing. The severe option enables the assassin class to be playable as assassination attacks have a chance of succeeding on more than simply successful ambushes.

A full surprise round is really only 1 round too. It is harder for an entire group to sneak up on anyone. Elves, halflings, rangers, and thieves get bonuses, but that is part of what makes those races and classes unique.

 

[Lokiare]

I think that any character that is surprised should get a -20 to initiative. If you are 20 above everyone else not only do you go first but you get an extra round for every 20 points you are above everyone else...