Surprised while already in combat?

[buzz]

Tonight's game saw us fighting some ghouls and a spectre. A ghoul crawled up out of the ground right next to my sorcerer and then attacked. The DM ruled that this emergence from the ground counted as a "surprise attack" and thus my sorcerer was flat-footed.

I'm looking through the books, and I'm not seeing anything about becoming flat-footed because a new combatant that your character may not have been aware of has joined the combat. Since there's no facing, I don't see how even a failed Spot check would result in being flat-footed. All that I can see matters in this instance is whether the new combatant is aware of the other combatants. In fact, it's the ghoul who sould have been flat-footed until its turn in the round came up.

If the ghoul were invisible, that'd be one thing, but popping out of the ground? Am I missing something? How would you rule on this?

 

[dcollins]

You're right, and this is a common error. Surprise is a special round that can only happen at the start of combat. Flat-footed is a state that only exists at the start of combat (PHB, "Combat: Initiative"). An enemy jumping out at you unexpectedly cannot create another surprise or flat-footed condition (which admittedly is rather counter-intuitive).

My DMG has a section on "Combat: New Combatants Enter the Fray" that says that new combatants, aware of what they're getting into, should be given automatic highest initiative in the round they appear to simulate their advantage. That's it -- no "surprise" or "flat-footed".

As DM in your case, I would have the wraiths pop up and give each other flanking bonuses in ways that you wouldn't like and couldn't prevent.

 

[Darkness]

My DMG has a section on "Combat: New Combatants Enter the Fray" that says that new combatants, aware of what they're getting into, should be given automatic highest initiative in the round they appear to simulate their advantage. That's it -- no "surprise" or "flat-footed".

The 3.5 DMG has this section as well (p.23-24). They apparently keep the highest initiative for the rest of the combat (barring initiative total-modifying circumstances), though.

 

[Liquidsabre]

No new combatant here. Try a ghoul that has already rolled initiative but has chosen to lay a few inches under the ground (total cover - i.e. auto hide) and delaying their action until later. A PC is nearby - Ghoul stands and attacks catching character unaware of the ghoul's presence (flat-footed). What's the big deal anyhow? Can't give your DM any slack for horror-picture-esque moments? Yikes, not like it was a Rogue-Assassin Ghoul or anything right? RIGHT? Oh dear...

 

[S'mon]

I think per the RAW the ghouls' unaware victim is supposed to lose its DEX bonus per the ghouls' attack only? And as has been said, the ghoul acts at the top of the round, but doesn't get a free partial/standard action.

 

[dcollins]

I think per the RAW the ghouls' unaware victim is supposed to lose its DEX bonus per the ghouls' attack only?

No, there's nothing like that in the rules.

 

[Lord Pendragon]

Others have pointed out the rules regarding new combatants. To add to that, ghouls can't see through dirt. So the ghoul couldn't have been aware of you before you were aware of the ghoul.

No surprise, no flat-footedness, no loss of dex bonus.

 

[rowport]

No surprise, no flat-footedness, no loss of dex bonus.

Hey, there! I am Buzz's partner in crime in the game. (Well, actually, he is my cohort, but I leave him his illusions of equality. LOL)

I agree with you guys that he should not have been "flat-footed", since the surprise round was passed. But, since the ghoul was hiding under a big rock, I would think it was effectively an "invisible" attacker and therefore deny his Dex bonus (and get +2 attack). Is that right? If so, the end result is probably about the same- being flat-footed is roughly equivalent to losing Dex bonus and the attacker having a +2 attack bonus.

Sneaky ghouls.

 

[Lord Pendragon]

But, since the ghoul was hiding under a big rock, I would think it was effectively an "invisible" attacker

No. Because the ghoul can't see through the rock. The PC is just as invisible to ghoul as the ghoul is to the PC.

 

[nothing to see here]

This disccusion is another example of how the core Rules favouring ease of play over vivid detail...each approach has its own merits.

What the RAW do have, however, is a mechanic to deny a character his DEX bonys mid round. It's the feint action. While it would be taking the rules in a direction not intended as written, it might be considered fair in this situation to use an analog of the feint action, only replace bluff with hide, and replace your character's sense motive skill with spot.

If the ghoul is really good at hiding...boom...it gets feint like benefits