Surprised while already in combat?

[Gansk]

Ambushes in the middle of an ongoing combat occur fairly frequently, so it is important for a DM to have a rules interpretation on this situation. Here's mine:

Step 1) Determine if the ambusher is aware of the enemy. A ghoul underground cannot see, but can still probably hear the combat depending on how deep it is underneath. The DC to hear an ongoing combat is -10 + 1 per 10 feet of distance + a situational modifier for the dampening effect of the earth.

Step 2) If the ambusher is aware, it goes at the top of the round (highest initiative). If unaware, it rolls initiative.

Step 3) Determine if the enemy is aware of the ambusher before the ambusher takes an action. If the ghoul is lying still underground, then it is effectively invisible and silent.

Step 4) Take the ambusher's action. If the action includes an attack (through a charge, 5 foot step and attack, or readied action) and the enemy was unaware of the ambusher, then the ambusher was effectively invisible during the attack and the enemy does not get his dex bonus. In this case the only action the ghoul could take to make an attack would be a readied action IMO. Crawling out of the ground should not be a 5 foot step for a non-burrowing creature. I would consider the ghoul to be in a prone position, but it would get a cover bonus if it was only half out of the ground.

Step 5) If the ambusher has another action left, determine again if the enemy is aware of it before executing the action. In this case the ghoul is out in the light, so it is automatically visible.

 

[El Mono Digo]

That is what spot checks are all about.

While it isn't entirely in line with RAW, I do agree some common sense realism could be ruled in this situation...however, that spot check would have such a low DC it wouldn't matter probably. Noticing a Ghoul popping out of the ground right next to you? DC 0ish, or maybe up to 5 if the DM is feeling cruel and assuming it is behind you (once again, depends on if you are dealing with facing or not in this particular game). If you are going down the road of requiring a check at all then that would probably be both a spot and listen check, both at said uselessly low DCs.

 

[I'm A Banana]

But, since the ghoul was hiding under a big rock, I would think it was effectively an "invisible" attacker and therefore deny his Dex bonus (and get +2 attack).

And was completely silent when it was digging out of the earth *right next to you*?

It's hard for me to think that a character wouldn't be aware if something dug out of the ground and stood up right next to him...

But still, you probably want to preserve the shocking and sudden effect of it...so here's my interpretation:

* An "encounter" basically happens as long as two sides can see each other or are aware of each other's presence nearby in some way. Spotting an army through a crystal ball isn't an encounter, and you don't get to encounter the monsters on the other side of the wall until you can actually interact with them...
* So if the ghoul was laying under the earth, he wasn't part of the encounter at first
* The ghoul is dimly aware of stuff happening above him...without blindsight or blindsense or the ability to see through earth, he can't really be aware of each creature's exact position, but he can hear some shouting and fighting
* When the ghoul decides to enter combat, he's gotta dig himself out of the earth. That's gonna make noise, that's gonna make movement -- that's gonna be pretty obvious. He doesn't earth glide, he's corporeal, he can't really just kip up, even if he's only a few inches below the ground (which, to me, would seem to make his hiding place more obvious...). Digging himself out of the earth is probably a standard action, at least, allowing him to stand or roll away.
* Alternately, there's the whole "fist comes up suddenly through the ground and grabs your ankles" thing. I'd say that the ghoul would effectively be attacking through full cover, meaning that he'd probably miss quite horrendously. But it's like stabbing your sword through a wall to something you see on the other side -- it either requires l33t n1nj4 sk1llz, or it's really a shot in the dark. A common ghoul doesn't have the sk1llz...he'd probably prefer to dig his way out, though if he thinks someone has stopped on top of him, he might claw instead.
* When the ghoul does enter combat, everyone has to react to the new situation -- it's time to re-roll initiative, and until you go, you're flat footed again. Everyone is surprised by the ghoul -- monsters included. It's a new encounter, a new interaction, a new combat.

Effectively, think about what you would rule if your PC's were on one side of a wooden wall, and there were monsters on the other side of it...would you let them stab through the wall and hit one? Or break through the wall and get a free attack against the surprised critters? In certain circumstances, yeah, I can imagine it. But I think in most, smashing through a wall or digging up from a mound of earth is going to interefere enough and cause enough chaos that you won't really gain much an advantage, at best making everyone try to take stock of the situation again.

 

[ThirdWizard]

Much better than a ghoul is a wraith.

The wraith is incorporeal, makes no noise, and only has to reach his head and arm up out of the ground to make the attack. Much more likely to take someone by surprise.

 

[Coredump]

Noticing a Ghoul popping out of the ground right next to you? DC 0ish, or maybe up to 5 if the DM is feeling cruel and assuming it is behind you (once again, depends on if you are dealing with facing or not in this particular game). If you are going down the road of requiring a check at all then that would probably be both a spot and listen check, both at said uselessly low DCs.

You say that like it is a fact.

Not noticing something like that, while in the middle of combat? It may not be a DC35, but 0???

 

[Caliban]

One way you could do it by the rules is have the Ghoul be under a thin layer of dirt. After combat starts it readies an action to attack the first person to step on it. If anyone steps on it, they have to make a balance check due to unstable footing. You lose your Dex bonus while balancing unless you have 5 ranks of balance.

The ghoul is attacking from a prone position, but would catch their target without their Dex bonus. If you want to simulate the "springing up an attacking" schtick from the movies, give the ghouls the Lightning Reflexes and Prone Fighting feats.

 

[atom crash]

Caliban, now that's just mean.

I like it!

 

[S'mon]

If you let PC Rogues hide & sneak attack enemies during combat who are denied their Dex bonus, don't you let NPC monsters do the same? I thought it was pretty clear in 3e that you don't get your DEX bonus if you're unaware of the opponent until they attack, and unless you have a special ability you can still lose Dex bonus even if you are aware of them but they're invisible etc.

 

[El Mono Digo]

You say that like it is a fact.

Not noticing something like that, while in the middle of combat? It may not be a DC35, but 0???

Well, what is our definition description for ghoul "popping" out of the ground? I'm imagining something that would be near impossible to not notice when it is happening right next to you, i.e. the thing is right next to the sorc and just bursts its way through the dirt and comes to a more or less standing position to attack.

 

[Lord Pendragon]

Okay, I'm going to mention it one last time, then I'll quietly leave you all to your business.

Ghouls can't see through dirt.

If a ghoul is underground on its turn, then the PC is just as invisible to it, as it is to the PC.

The ghoul doesn't attack as if it were invisible, because it can't see the PC as an invisible creature could.

The ghoul doesn't deny its target its dex bonus, because it can't see the PC as a hidden rogue could.

Straight up combat, with a cinematic twist. No combat modifiers at all.

Okay, now that I've gotten that out of my system, carry on.