Surprising Rule Synergy

[Question]

Bront : Thats the exception though .

 

[Bront]

Bront : Thats the exception though .

Not realy. If you build a mounted character, you shouldn't have too much of a problem finding encounters where you can use that.

That's what's fun with small creatures on riding dogs. They can ride in dungeons and enclosed places.

 

[Hypersmurf]

That's what's fun with small creatures on riding dogs. They can ride in dungeons and enclosed places.

And let's not forget the 'Full Attack Shuffle'!

Halfing pokes with lance from ten feet away; dog 5' steps in and bites.

Next round: dog bites and 5' steps out; halfling pokes with lance.

Repeat as necessary.

-Hyp.

 

[Bront]

And let's not forget the 'Full Attack Shuffle'!

Halfing pokes with lance from ten feet away; dog 5' steps in and bites.

Next round: dog bites and 5' steps out; halfling pokes with lance.

Repeat as necessary.

-Hyp.

Sweet, once I get a second attack, I'll have to try that.

 

[frankthedm]

I happen to be playing a paladin in a game that just reached 13th level, and I'm finding some decisions I made early on are having surprising consequences now. So far, these have all been good, but we are, as a group, startled at how effective some decisions are.

For example:

Practiced Spellcaster: Because my paladin is supposed to be a priest who suffered tragedy and turned to more martial skills after a little divine inspiration, I wanted to run him as spell-heavy for a paladin. As soon as I could, I took Practiced Spellcaster, to represent his more advanced spellcasting training. And then I largely forgot about it.

Great for Dragons too! It makes thier Buffs a fair bit harder to dispel.

Brutal Throw: STR to hit with a thrown weapon? Giant's bolders become a real threat, going from a threat to soft targets, to stone homing missles Combo that with quickdraw and lay the hurt down from a LONG was away. Snag a few large to huge bolas for when they get close, soak the -4 to hit and make sure the players never stay standing! -4 to touch means squat to giant and makes a great choice for the secondary or third attack.

 

[mvincent]

Bront : Thats the exception though .

A mount focused build can always find a way to get a mount wherever needed, possibly via:
1) The mount spell (and a good ride skill)
2) The Paladin's warhorse
3) The phantom steed spell
4) Figurine of wondrous power
5) Bag of tricks
6) Polymorphed or wildshaped ally
7) Skeletal mount (in a bag of holding)
8) Flying mount
etc.

 

[frankthedm]

1) The mount spell (and a good ride skill)

If you have the caster leveel or UMD "You summon a light horse or a pony (your choice) to serve you as a mount. The steed serves willingly and well. The mount comes with a bit and bridle and a riding saddle". You will never be able to charge with this mount either, ever. Controling a non combat mount is a move action, charging is a full round action.

5) Bag of tricks

Random mounts that run out, they have no war training save for the warhorse.

6) Polymorphed or wildshaped ally

Are you sure that works as well as you think it does? "Fight with Warhorse: If you direct your war-trained mount to attack in battle, you can still make your own attack or attacks normally." sounds like your ally would have to forgo his or her attacks so you can act since they won't have war training.

7) Skeletal mount (in a bag of holding)

No war training, terrible HP, evilalignment and int 0 combine for potential hillarity.

8) Flying mount

Flying mounts can’t fly in medium or heavy barding and minimum movement can creep up on you so be careful not to crash...

 

[mvincent]

If you have the caster leveel or UMD "You summon a light horse or a pony (your choice) to serve you as a mount. The steed serves willingly and well. The mount comes with a bit and bridle and a riding saddle". You will never be able to charge with this mount either, ever.

You are incorrect. I have done so, a lot. Actually, I have used all the suggestions I made (to good effect), so your protests would be moot even if they were mechanically correct.

Controling a non combat mount is a move action, charging is a full round action.

Charging is a full round action for the horse, but not for the rider. The rules actually say:
"If your mount charges, you also take the AC penalty associated with a charge. If you make an attack at the end of the charge, you receive the bonus gained from the charge."

Charging is difficult on an untrained horse (hence the need for a high ride skill), and provokes an AoO, but it can be done.

Random mounts that run out, they have no war training save for the warhorse.

They lasted long enough for me (and several other people that I have seen use this trick). Usually the war horse was easy enough to get, but using the others (especially the rhino) can be a blast if you have a high enough ride skill.

Are you sure that works as well as you think it does? "Fight with Warhorse: If you direct your war-trained mount to attack in battle, you can still make your own attack or attacks normally." sounds like your ally would have to forgo his or her attacks so you can act since they won't have war training.

Now you are just making up stuff to debate about. Anyway, this Rules of the Game article should cover it:
"Intelligent Mounts
According to the Dungeon Master's Guide, a mount with an Intelligence score of 3 or higher acts like an NPC ally rather than a mount. Riding such an ally works much like riding an aggressive mount in battle (see Part Two), except that you don't have to make a Ride check to act while riding. (If your mount carries you willingly, the ride is smooth enough so your actions aren't restricted.) You also cannot make a Ride check to control the mount's actions, but you can make a Diplomacy (or possibly a Wild Empathy) check to get the mount to accept your direction. If you do, your mount acts just like a mount trained for combat riding."

No war training, terrible HP, evilalignment and int 0 combine for potential hillarity.

Skeletons retain the weapon proficiencies of the base creature (and evidently armor proficiencies as well, since the Human Warrior Skeleton example is using a shield without penalty). There is no reason to think that an animated warhorse would be difficult to control (and it certainly wouldn't get spooked). But, having used them often, I agree that skeletal mounts have great potential for hilarity. However their DR, immunity to cold and general tirelessness can sometimes make up for it.

Flying mounts can’t fly in medium or heavy barding

Also incorrect. The rules say:
"A creature with a fly speed can move through the air at the indicated speed if carrying no more than a light load. (Note that medium armor does not necessarily constitute a medium load.)"

and minimum movement can creep up on you so be careful not to crash...

Given that flying mounts are a mainstay of D&D, I'm unsure what you are trying to refute.

Edit: almost forgot this one:

If you have the caster leveel or UMD "You summon a light horse or a pony (your choice) to serve you as a mount.

The emphasis is yours. The spell's description does not say or imply that the mount can only be used by you. Granted, when I used this I did have the caster level to create it for myself, but if the DM said that I could not allow someone else to ride the mount I would have questioned him on it.

 

[KarinsDad]

You are incorrect. I have done so, a lot. Actually, I have used all the suggestions I made (to good effect), so your protests would be moot even if they were mechanically correct.

Some of his protests were accurate according to RAW.

Charging is a full round action for the horse, but not for the rider. The rules actually say:
"If your mount charges, you also take the AC penalty associated with a charge. If you make an attack at the end of the charge, you receive the bonus gained from the charge."

Charging is difficult on an untrained horse (hence the need for a high ride skill), and provokes an AoO, but it can be done.

No, it cannot. The phrase "If your mount charges" does not mean that all mounts can charge.

Fight with Warhorse: If you direct your war-trained mount to attack in battle, you can still make your own attack or attacks normally. This usage is a free action.

This is what the Ride skill states. Your mount cannot attack at the same time as you unless it is war-trained is the implication. There is no Ride skill that allows a non-war-trained mount to attack. This is the only "fight" manuever listed under the Ride skill. There might be one in another book, but not in RAW.

You can charge with a war-trained mount and get its attacks as well. You cannot do this with a non-war-trained mount. The non-war-trained mount can move and you can attack, but it cannot charge and have you attack.

Charging is a special full-round action that allows you to move up to twice your speed and attack during the action. However, it carries tight restrictions on how you can move.

Charging is listed under the special attacks section, so, the non-war-trained mount cannot charge because it cannot attack while ridden.

They lasted long enough for me (and several other people that I have seen use this trick). Usually the war horse was easy enough to get, but using the others (especially the rhino) can be a blast if you have a high enough ride skill.

With 10 pulls from the bag per week and only a 1 in 5 chance of getting the Warhorse, Frank's point is that you won't be able to do this a lot and he is correct. On average, you can do it twice per week for 10 minutes each.

The animal serves the character who drew it from the bag for 10 minutes (or until slain or ordered back into the bag), at which point it disappears. It can follow any of the commands described in the Handle Animal skill. Each of the three kinds of a bag of tricks produces a different set of animals. Use the following tables to determine what animals can be drawn out of each.

The heavy warhorse appears with harness and tack and accepts the character who drew it from the bag as a rider.

The question here is whether the "purposes" in the Handle Animal skill are "commands". I would not think so. I think the "perform a task or trick" in the Handle Animal skill are "commands" and the "purposes" are specialized training. But, a different DM might rule differently.

Since the heavy warhorse appears with tack, I suspect that the designers had them in mind for riding and not the other creatuers.

Getting the Rhino if purposes are not commands still means that you cannot have the Rhino charge and the PC attack since the Rhino cannot attack while being ridden (it is not war-trained). It can attack while not being ridden since attack is part of the standard Handle Animal list of "tricks and tasks".

Also incorrect. The rules say:
"A creature with a fly speed can move through the air at the indicated speed if carrying no more than a light load. (Note that medium armor does not necessarily constitute a medium load.)"

Given that flying mounts are a mainstay of D&D, I'm unsure what you are trying to refute.

Minimum Forward Speed: If a flying creature fails to maintain its minimum forward speed, it must land at the end of its movement. If it is too high above the ground to land, it falls straight down, descending 150 feet in the first round of falling. If this distance brings it to the ground, it takes falling damage. If the fall doesn’t bring the creature to the ground, it must spend its next turn recovering from the stall. It must succeed on a DC 20 Reflex save to recover. Otherwise it falls another 300 feet. If it hits the ground, it takes falling damage. Otherwise, it has another chance to recover on its next turn.

For average and lower maneuverable creatures, the Minimum Forward Speed is half. If the creature is encumbered by medium or heavier barding and a rider, it is very difficult for it to charge successfully because it still has to move half of its speed. Frank's point was that minimum forward speed can easily creep up on you. He was incorrect about medium and heavy barding (tmk), but he was correct that low maneuverability flying mounts can easily crash if they have a rider and armor on and try to fight in flight (course, this can happen even if the flying creature is not encumbered).

For example, an average maneuverability Pegasus has a Strength of 18. Most medium sized riders with gear would put a Pegasus in a Heavy load (200 to 300 pounds) very quickly. Hence, it is difficult for a pegasus to carry a both a medium sized rider and wear barding. Its reduced speed would be 40 from 60. If it ever drops to 25 or lower (like with a short distance charge), it has to land (which it cannot since it charged) or it will fall.

Since a Charge is a special full round attack action, a Pegasus could not do a Charge as part of a Fly By Attack. So, if it charges 25 feet or less, it falls.

 

[Piratecat]

I hate to say this, but your damage amounts might be wrong.

With a lance, I have a +18 attack and deal 1d8+6. If I smite evil, that hops up to +21 attack and 1d8+19. If I'm charging, +23 to attack and 1d8+19. If I'm mounted and my target is Medium and not mounted, +25 attack, 1d8+19.

If I trust my +18 was good enough, I can power attack for 7 points. Since a lance is a two-handed weapon, that's +14 damage. That brings me to 1d8+33. However, with spirited charge I deal TRIPLE DAMAGE with a lance, making it 3d8+99. Should I happen to crit (much more likely with bless weapon than otherwise) it's 5d8+165

In D&D, damage that does x2 damage (like power attack) which is then tripled (by a spirited charge) only goes to x4, not x6. That means (unless I'm missing something) that instead of 3d8+99, you'd do 3d8+85. If you crit, it's 5d8+137.

Also, note that you can't use your lance two handed if you're also using a shield.

Nice synergy, though! I hadn't realized that practiced caster would work with a single-classed spellcaster.