D&D 5E "Surrender or Die" Roared the Barbarian - Making the Opponents Surrender

[Stormonu]

Fights to the death. Enemies who never give up until they they're out of hit points.

Sometimes, it's a bit annoying. So I'm strongly considering this optional rule, and I'm curious to see what others think of it.

Once a sentient opponent is reduced to half hit points (bloodied) or less, you can take an action using Deception, Persuasion or Intimidation (the DM determines which, based on your approach) to attempt to force your opponent to drop out of the combat. (Certain subclasses might be allowed to do this as a Bonus Action or possibly a Reaction, such as a Monk of the Way of Mercy, a Rogue Mastermind or a Paladin of Redemption). Normally, you can only target one creature per action, but if you have Second Attack or a similar ability, you can replace one or more of your attacks with an attempt to force a separate target to stop fighting. You can't target a creature more than once per round into attempting to surrender.

Deception DC = 8 + skill modifier (Expertise adds +2 instead of twice PB) vs. target's Wisdom. The attacker lies about their true strength, presence of allies or intentions if the opponent will stop fighting.

Persuasion DC = 8 + skill modifier (Expertise adds +2 instead of twice PB) vs. target's Wisdom. The attacker attempts to persuade the target that they are not an enemy or would benefit from working together instead of against each other.

Intimidation DC = 8 + skill modifier (Expertise adds +2 instead of twice PB) vs. target's Wisdom. The attacker attempts to dissuade the target from fighting by threatening their life or that of someone meaningful to the target.

On a failure, the target takes 1d4 x your character level in psychic damage. You can repeat the action next round if the target fails the saving throw. If the target makes the saving throw, they are immune to attempts to be thusly persuaded for 1 hour. If the target is reduced to 0 hit points by the action, they do not fall unconscious nor make death saves. However, they bow out of the fight, conceding to the attacking character's demands to the best of their ability, running away or otherwise removing themselves as an obstacle to the character's progress.

Allies (or more likely, superiors) of the target can use a reaction to attempt to counter or nullify the attempt to persuade the target to surrender. With such intervention, the target gains advantage on the save.

Certain spells may also affect attempts to persuade a target to surrender. Cloak of Bravery, Remove Fear and Calm Emotions grant advantage on the save. Conversely, Cause Fear would inflict disadvantage on the save, and so on.

Some conditions might also affect the save - being Frightened would certainly inflict disadvantage

It would be wise for the DM to track the psychic damage separate from "actual damage" if the target will be interacted with after the combat ends.

 

[Shiroiken]

I think using Morale checks is a simpler method. If you don't like the swinginess of the d20, replace it with a 2d10 roll instead (as was done in 2E). Social skills can be used to force a Morale check as an action.

 

[Morrus]

What if you've been fighting for ages, and your enemy clearly has the upper hand doing 5 times as much damage to you as you are doing to them, you're on 1 HP and your enemy is on 300 HP (half of their normal 600 HP) -- would they surrender then because they tripped over that bloodied despite the fact that you also did several rounds ago?

Can a goblin with 4 HP wander up to a wounded dragon with 'only' 300 HP and intimidate it into surrender?

Maybe a rider that you have to have more current HP than your target for it to work. Otherwise if fails automatically.

 

[Micah Sweet]

I think using Morale checks is a simpler method. If you don't like the swinginess of the d20, replace it with a 2d10 roll instead (as was done in 2E). Social skills can be used to force a Morale check as an action.

Yeah, I'm in favor of old-fashioned morale rules to handle stuff like this. TSR more or less had this covered.

 

[Stalker0]

Fights to the death. Enemies who never give up until they they're out of hit points.

Sometimes, it's a bit annoying. So I'm strongly considering this optional rule, and I'm curious to see what others think of it.

Once a sentient opponent is reduced to half hit points (bloodied) or less, you can take an action using Deception, Persuasion or Intimidation (the DM determines which, based on your approach) to attempt to force your opponent to drop out of the combat. (Certain subclasses might be allowed to do this as a Bonus Action or possibly a Reaction, such as a Monk of the Way of Mercy, a Rogue Mastermind or a Paladin of Redemption). Normally, you can only target one creature per action, but if you have Second Attack or a similar ability, you can replace one or more of your attacks with an attempt to force a separate target to stop fighting. You can't target a creature more than once per round into attempting to surrender.

Deception DC = 8 + skill modifier (Expertise adds +2 instead of twice PB) vs. target's Wisdom. The attacker lies about their true strength, presence of allies or intentions if the opponent will stop fighting.

Persuasion DC = 8 + skill modifier (Expertise adds +2 instead of twice PB) vs. target's Wisdom. The attacker attempts to persuade the target that they are not an enemy or would benefit from working together instead of against each other.

Intimidation DC = 8 + skill modifier (Expertise adds +2 instead of twice PB) vs. target's Wisdom. The attacker attempts to dissuade the target from fighting by threatening their life or that of someone meaningful to the target.

On a failure, the target takes 1d4 x your character level in psychic damage. You can repeat the action next round if the target fails the saving throw. If the target makes the saving throw, they are immune to attempts to be thusly persuaded for 1 hour. If the target is reduced to 0 hit points by the action, they do not fall unconscious nor make death saves. However, they bow out of the fight, conceding to the attacking character's demands to the best of their ability, running away or otherwise removing themselves as an obstacle to the character's progress.

Allies (or more likely, superiors) of the target can use a reaction to attempt to counter or nullify the attempt to persuade the target to surrender. With such intervention, the target gains advantage on the save.

Certain spells may also affect attempts to persuade a target to surrender. Cloak of Bravery, Remove Fear and Calm Emotions grant advantage on the save. Conversely, Cause Fear would inflict disadvantage on the save, and so on.

Some conditions might also affect the save - being Frightened would certainly inflict disadvantage

It would be wise for the DM to track the psychic damage separate from "actual damage" if the target will be interacted with after the combat ends.

I like the core idea, but I think we can simplify this a bit.

Morale Attack: Use can substitute one of your attacks for a morale attack. Roll a Deception/Persuasion/ or Intimidation check. If the results of the check are equal or greater than the opponent's remaining hitpoints, they gain the frightened condition and will surrender on their next turn. Starting at 10th level, you can double the results of the check

A creature that is immune from the frightened condition is immune from this attack.

 

[R_J_K75]

I think using Morale checks is a simpler method. If you don't like the swinginess of the d20, replace it with a 2d10 roll instead (as was done in 2E). Social skills can be used to force a Morale check as an action.

Yeah, I'm in favor of old-fashioned morale rules to handle stuff like this. TSR more or less had this covered.

This was what I was going to say until I got sidetracked before I was able to look up the old 2E morale rules. I think one big drawback of the d20 system is that most people's first instinct is to try and resolve a lot of things with a skill or d20 check, and the core rules back this up. I still use the old 2E morale rules to an extent and keep the morale ratings and situational modifiers in the back of my head and apply them in 5E when it makes sense.

 

[Zaukrie]

@mearls is introducing morale in his game, probably.

Me? I'd give opponents static morale scores, if I was doing this. Some woukd never have such, as they never surrender. There might be triggers or reactions, like bloodied, or all their allies killed?

Also, what do your players do with those that surrender in the first goblin cave? And cave after cave? .... This is an example, hopefully you get the point.

 

[Smackpixi]

A whole heap of enemies I run, run away or surrender to preserve their lives.

Fights to the death. Enemies who never give up until they they're out of hit points.

Sometimes, it's a bit annoying. So I'm strongly considering this optional rule, and I'm curious to see what others think of it.

Once a sentient opponent is reduced to half hit points (bloodied) or less, you can take an action using Deception, Persuasion or Intimidation (the DM determines which, based on your approach) to attempt to force your opponent to drop out of the combat. (Certain subclasses might be allowed to do this as a Bonus Action or possibly a Reaction, such as a Monk of the Way of Mercy, a Rogue Mastermind or a Paladin of Redemption). Normally, you can only target one creature per action, but if you have Second Attack or a similar ability, you can replace one or more of your attacks with an attempt to force a separate target to stop fighting. You can't target a creature more than once per round into attempting to surrender.

Deception DC = 8 + skill modifier (Expertise adds +2 instead of twice PB) vs. target's Wisdom. The attacker lies about their true strength, presence of allies or intentions if the opponent will stop fighting.

Persuasion DC = 8 + skill modifier (Expertise adds +2 instead of twice PB) vs. target's Wisdom. The attacker attempts to persuade the target that they are not an enemy or would benefit from working together instead of against each other.

Intimidation DC = 8 + skill modifier (Expertise adds +2 instead of twice PB) vs. target's Wisdom. The attacker attempts to dissuade the target from fighting by threatening their life or that of someone meaningful to the target.

On a failure, the target takes 1d4 x your character level in psychic damage. You can repeat the action next round if the target fails the saving throw. If the target makes the saving throw, they are immune to attempts to be thusly persuaded for 1 hour. If the target is reduced to 0 hit points by the action, they do not fall unconscious nor make death saves. However, they bow out of the fight, conceding to the attacking character's demands to the best of their ability, running away or otherwise removing themselves as an obstacle to the character's progress.

Allies (or more likely, superiors) of the target can use a reaction to attempt to counter or nullify the attempt to persuade the target to surrender. With such intervention, the target gains advantage on the save.

Certain spells may also affect attempts to persuade a target to surrender. Cloak of Bravery, Remove Fear and Calm Emotions grant advantage on the save. Conversely, Cause Fear would inflict disadvantage on the save, and so on.

Some conditions might also affect the save - being Frightened would certainly inflict disadvantage

It would be wise for the DM to track the psychic damage separate from "actual damage" if the target will be interacted with after the combat ends.

why do you need rules to do this? A whole host of the enemies I run will flee or surrender when it’s clearly not going well for them. Beasts will flee after even slight injury unless protecting young or clearly superior. Anything sentient doesn’t want to die, so yeah they surrender or flee if you don’t kill quickly when they’re clearly outmatched. My players don’t get a dungeon full of four goblin rooms, when out matched they run to alert others and mass up against the players. Even then mooks don’t just keep flinging themselves against a superior force Oldboy-style, they see what happened to guys in front of them and say, fork that, and pack it in. The preference is flee, but surrender is also an option. My players know they’ll need a lot of rope to tie surrendering things up. And I use these guys to both reveal and obfuscate plot elements under interrogation.

Now, sometimes, for the enemies, the gang/society they’re in makes flight or surrender a fate worse than death, so they’ll fight on. Perhaps in that case, persuasion comes into play, like the baddie doesn’t want to die, but knows if he surrenders, could be bad news for his family, so players would need to convince him that party is going for the big bad and will remove threat to family.

 

[jayoungr]

Does anyone know of a third-party morale system for 5E?

 

[Zaukrie]

A whole heap of enemies I run, run away or surrender to preserve their lives.

why do you need rules to do this? A whole host of the enemies I run will flee or surrender when it’s clearly not going well for them. Beasts will flee after even slight injury unless protecting young or clearly superior. Anything sentient doesn’t want to die, so yeah they surrender or flee if you don’t kill quickly when they’re clearly outmatched. My players don’t get a dungeon full of four goblin rooms, when out matched they run to alert others and mass up against the players. Even then mooks don’t just keep flinging themselves against a superior force Oldboy-style, they see what happened to guys in front of them and say, fork that, and pack it in. The preference is flee, but surrender is also an option. My players know they’ll need a lot of rope to tie surrendering things up. And I use these guys to both reveal and obfuscate plot elements under interrogation.

Now, sometimes, for the enemies, the gang/society they’re in makes flight or surrender a fate worse than death, so they’ll fight on. Perhaps in that case, persuasion comes into play, like the baddie doesn’t want to die, but knows if he surrenders, could be bad news for his family, so players would need to convince him that party is going for the big bad and will remove threat to family.

Ya, I agree. Rules are not needed. DM fiat.