Swit Charge Question

[Tai]

Okay, I'm a bit confused.

First, I don't believe Furious Assault gives you any bonuses above the 1d12. You don't add static bonuses to Sneak Attack or Hunter's Quarry or Promise of Storm (Genasi), and it seems to be in that category.

Second, what is Battle Charge? I suspect you mean Combat Sprint (Barbarian Utility 2), which gives +4 bonus to defenses against OAs during a move. That bonus doesn't carry over to additional actions, so I'm not sure why it's relevant anyway.

Third, I don't understand the attacks you describe. Is the "3d12+5 and a 1d6" from a single attack? All I can think of is you mean "3d12+5 from Avalanche Strike", action point, "1d12+5+1d6 from Howling Strike".

Fourth, at least in the campaign I have the most time in, bosses have well over 100 hp, and probably closing in on 200. (We are at level 7) The single-target damage you describe above would not even bloody a 100 hp boss, and that's only if you HIT, which you will not always do.

Note: I'm not criticizing -- I just want to figure out if I'm missing something. I am about to start a Barbarian myself, and I don't want to go in with misconceptions.

He spent an action point, and also listed the damage bonuses in the wrong order. So, he opens with a howling strike, which is where the d6 and the +5 come from. Assuming he hit with both of his opening attacks, he'd have a reasonable chance of killing a level 2 monster (39.5 average damage), thus allowing him to make his extra attack.

 

[NaturalZero]

He spent an action point, and also listed the damage bonuses in the wrong order. So, he opens with a howling strike, which is where the d6 and the +5 come from. Assuming he hit with both of his opening attacks, he'd have a reasonable chance of killing a level 2 monster (39.5 average damage), thus allowing him to make his extra attack.

He didnt need an action point since he was assuming he would kill the thing with Avalanche and then use Howling Strike with his free Swift Charge. Where he was wrong was when he added the 1d6 from Howling Strike to his Avalanche Strike damage, as well as adding an extra +5 damage to his Furious Assault (which adds only an extra [W], instead of being a stand alone [W] that gets its own bonuses).

 

[ForbidenMaster]

Its not same because the trigger for Elven Reroll occurs when you roll an attack, which occurs before the attack is resolved, while Swift Charge is triggered when the enemy is reduced to 0, which occurs after the attack is resolved.

I see it as occurring during the attack. The step "Deal damage and apply other effects" includes unconsciousness and death.

Nothing in the text you quoted says you can't take triggered action on the following turn if the action was triggered at the very end of the previous turn. In fact, if you look at the text for both triggered actions and "taking your turn", it seems that you can perform a triggered action immediately after your turn.

Nothing in the text I quoted says that you cant take triggered actions 10 rounds later. What it does say is that a trigger "defines when you’re allowed to use the power." If you are going to argue that you take the action on the next combatants turn, then explain to me why you cannot take it even later then that.

You charge, resolve the attack, the end of your turn comes up and then you immediately make a Swift Charge as a free action at the beginning of the next turn. Taking the action at the beginning of the following turn is still immediately after the triggering action.

Except that a lot of events happen during the end of turn phase. You roll saving throws, you end effects, and you apply effects that occur at the end of your turn ("Any creature
that enters or ends its turn in the zone is immobilized" MM1 page 117).

Now even beyond that, when do you say the attack takes place? I understand after the turn in question, but is it before the next creatures turn? After the start of their turn? After they have taken 1 action? 2? When do you draw the line.

 

[NaturalZero]

I see it as occurring during the attack. The step "Deal damage and apply other effects" includes unconsciousness and death.

Once the damage is done the step is over. The last step has to be resolved in order to trigger the Swift Charge. This isnt like a trigger that occurs during an intermediate step (i.e., the attack roll step): the trigger necessitates that the final step is resolved before it can occur.

Nothing in the text I quoted says that you cant take triggered actions 10 rounds later. What it does say is that a trigger "defines when you’re allowed to use the power." If you are going to argue that you take the action on the next combatants turn, then explain to me why you cannot take it even later then that.

This is completely true. The text never states at all when you have to perform a triggered action. That doesnt change the fact, however, that the charge text explicitly states that no actions can be taken after a charge, except for a one very specific exception.

Except that a lot of events happen during the end of turn phase. You roll saving throws, you end effects, and you apply effects that occur at the end of your turn ("Any creature
that enters or ends its turn in the zone is immobilized" MM1 page 117).

I previously quoted the appropriate text. It states that the end of turn phase takes no time in the game world. If you down someone on a charge and then Swift Charge at the top of the following round, you are performing the triggered reaction immediately after the trigger.

Now even beyond that, when do you say the attack takes place? I understand after the turn in question, but is it before the next creatures turn? After the start of their turn? After they have taken 1 action? 2? When do you draw the line.

Like you pointed out, the text it completely ambiguous as to when triggered actions have to take place. It is very explicit, however, in stating that a free action is an action and that you cannot take actions on your turn after a charge (other than a very specific action which is spelled out for us).

 

[Orcus Porkus]

There seems to be a very articulate fraction here that thinks the world ends when charges end. Fact is, nobody can take my free (!) triggered (!) actions away from me. If you try, I'll rampage all over your rulebooks!

 

[Flipguarder]

Honestly, when I see a barbarian take a bazillion triggered free actions, and my warden can't mark after a charge, something don't seem right there.

 

[Orcus Porkus]

Honestly, when I see a barbarian take a bazillion triggered free actions, and my warden can't mark after a charge, something don't seem right there.

The difference is that rampage and swift charge are triggered actions. The barb can't help it - they just happen! In another thread I argued with the image of a dud. The rules don't allow duds.

The Warden mark on the other hand is not triggered.

The bottom line is I wished they had added some more paragraphs to the charge rule. There are so many time wasting discussions going on, from "what means moving directly", to polearmers charging adjacent or not, to the free action tantrum, and what else.

 

[Flipguarder]

The barb can't help it - they just happen!

That is just not true. IF it were, they would be no actions. Triggered free actions require SOME amount of attention.

Personally I would have my party pick between three different house-rules.

1. You can take 1 triggered free action after a charge.
2. You can only take free actions after a charge, but you can take as many as I deem reasonable (something like 4 or 5 max)
3. You can not take ANY actions after a charge, damage modifying free actions is fine, but charging AFTER a charge is not. Even if it is a triggered free actions. In other words, free actions modifying a current attack are all that you can do "after" a charge.

 

[Falstyr]

He didnt need an action point since he was assuming he would kill the thing with Avalanche and then use Howling Strike with his free Swift Charge. Where he was wrong was when he added the 1d6 from Howling Strike to his Avalanche Strike damage, as well as adding an extra +5 damage to his Furious Assault (which adds only an extra [W], instead of being a stand alone [W] that gets its own bonuses).

Pfew was getting worried I read the books wrong when the use of AP was mentioned.

As a Half Orc Barbarian I start with either Howling Strike which does the 1[w]+1d6+str mod followed by a Furious Assault 1[w]. This usually doesn't kill an opponent, but will get him way past bloodied. Unless you managed to do a crit damage and get a Rampage attack. That can take care of most regular monsters. Which then allows the use of Swift Charge...
At lvl3: (1d12+1d6+8)+(1d12) if you crit then follow up with another attack which can be another (1d12+1d6+8). At this point there is a chance of a kill to Swift Charge in order to deal (1d12+1d6+8)+(1d12) on another target. Some great damage output for a striker if everything goes optimally. But in this case you usually don't get the Rampage nor the kill to use Swift Charge. So (1d12+1d6+8)+(1d12) is what takes place in most cases.

When starting with the Avalanche Strike you get 3[w]+str mod followed by a Furious Assault 1[w]. This usually takes care of most tough opponents at lvl3. Especially if you follow through with the use of 1AP for another standard attack. Which I usually use the At-will Howling Strike to do so.
At lvl3: (3d12+8)+(1d12)+(AP:1d12+1d6+8). Then Swift Charge for another (1d12+1d6+8)+(1d12) if you hit that new target then Furious Assault is allowed again. This is usually the sequence used against tougher "named" opponents. This will get them near death. If you roll well and get a crit to activate Rampage you can even kill Kalarel in KotS within 1 round. Imagine if you use Action Point and get a crit you'd kill the boss yourself with 5d12+1d6+8 with 65hp that bastard wouldn't stand a chance.

In any case if the monster dies you can choose to use Swift Charge once per encounter. Not unlimited every time you get a kill...like I thought first few times when using it hehe. That would cause the barbarian to stay on a killing spree if there are a ton of minions lol.

Swift Charge comes with an extra free attack as well as an +con mod to Temp HP and is triggered on a kill. So you can charge over and do 1 more attack on another target. It's not like the barbarian will go on an endless spree of attack after attack.

Damage output is what strikers are for. In turn they have weaker defense. So I can't really see what a Warden has to complain about because they can't get an extra Mark. Just mark it once and its enough. I don't see fighters having trouble with that. They get a stronger defense and skills to use for that purpose. What use would they have for triggered events? It is the role of a warden to take OA's and such so that I as a barbarian can run in without losing precious HP. I could use Combat Sprint once per encounter to take care of a Warden/Defender not being around, but other then that I have to hope for enough kills to get enough temporary health.

 

[Tai]

Firstly, +8 is a very big stat mod for a level 3 character. How did it get so high? I can see a +1 weapon, and weapon focus if you bought it... Unless you were very lucky and got a +2 weapon?

Secondly, if you get a critical hit, you don't get another 1d6 damage, because you can only do a basic melee attack, not another howling strike.

Thirdly, furious assault isn't allowed again when you attack a new monster. It's an encounter power, and correct me if I'm wrong, but there doesn't seem to be any special way of getting it back.

As a Half Orc Barbarian I start with either Howling Strike which does the 1[w]+1d6+str mod followed by a Furious Assault 1[w]. This usually doesn't kill an opponent, but will get him way past bloodied. Unless you managed to do a crit damage and get a Rampage attack. That can take care of most regular monsters. Which then allows the use of Swift Charge...
At lvl3: (1d12+1d6+8)+(1d12) if you crit then follow up with another attack which can be another (1d12+1d6+8). At this point there is a chance of a kill to Swift Charge in order to deal (1d12+1d6+8)+(1d12) on another target. Some great damage output for a striker if everything goes optimally. But in this case you usually don't get the Rampage nor the kill to use Swift Charge. So (1d12+1d6+8)+(1d12) is what takes place in most cases.

When starting with the Avalanche Strike you get 3[w]+str mod followed by a Furious Assault 1[w]. This usually takes care of most tough opponents at lvl3. Especially if you follow through with the use of 1AP for another standard attack. Which I usually use the At-will Howling Strike to do so.
At lvl3: (3d12+8)+(1d12)+(AP:1d12+1d6+8). Then Swift Charge for another (1d12+1d6+8)+(1d12) if you hit that new target then Furious Assault is allowed again. This is usually the sequence used against tougher "named" opponents. This will get them near death. If you roll well and get a crit to activate Rampage you can even kill Kalarel in KotS within 1 round. Imagine if you use Action Point and get a crit you'd kill the boss yourself with 5d12+1d6+8 with 65hp that bastard wouldn't stand a chance.

In any case if the monster dies you can choose to use Swift Charge once per encounter. Not unlimited every time you get a kill...like I thought first few times when using it hehe. That would cause the barbarian to stay on a killing spree if there are a ton of minions lol.

Swift Charge comes with an extra free attack as well as an +con mod to Temp HP and is triggered on a kill. So you can charge over and do 1 more attack on another target. It's not like the barbarian will go on an endless spree of attack after attack.

Damage output is what strikers are for. In turn they have weaker defense. So I can't really see what a Warden has to complain about because they can't get an extra Mark. Just mark it once and its enough. I don't see fighters having trouble with that. They get a stronger defense and skills to use for that purpose. What use would they have for triggered events? It is the role of a warden to take OA's and such so that I as a barbarian can run in without losing precious HP. I could use Combat Sprint once per encounter to take care of a Warden/Defender not being around, but other then that I have to hope for enough kills to get enough temporary health.