D&D (2024) "Sword" and Board Build?

[UngeheuerLich]

It does work "fine" but mathematically it is most effective at reducing damage when combined with a shield. It is mathematically more powerful when your AC is higher.

Yes and no.

Yes:
If you are alone in a fight with an enemy, then yes, as your effective hp go from very high to near infinite (except for a critical hit every 20 attacks on average).

No:
Since you usually are not alone in a duel 1 vs 1, going from medium effective hp to high effective hp is usually enough to outlast your party members. So if your effective HP is already very high, adding even more usually has a lot of diminishing return and it is probably better to invest in the sentinel feat to force an enemy to fight you instead of squishies.

 

[mellored]

It does work "fine" but mathematically it is most effective at reducing damage when combined with a shield. It is mathematically more powerful when your AC is higher.

True, if you can keep their attention.

Sure it works any Finesse, which means you can use 5 of 20 one-handed melee weapons,

Don't darts also work?
Get sharp shooter and you can use it in melee.

or 3 of 8 light melee weapons if you also want to dual wield. It limits your weapon choices, which is what I said.

It works with every martial Nick weapon, and the best simple Nick weapon.

If your dual wielding, it doesn't need to be your primary weapon. Either one works.

And you can still attack with Str.

The only thing that doesn't work is the Crusher feat. (Edit: or Shillelagh) But you can still dual wield

On a Monk it competes with deflect attacks and as with other classes it dramatically limits monks to 3 out of 13 Monk weapons.

It's still an upgrade for Monks.
0 damage is better than damage reduction. Plus a chance on future attacks to miss.
And if they roll really high, Deflect attacks will still work.

Also monks damage scales, so doesn't matter what weapon they hold.

Not as big of an upgrade as it would be for someone without a reaction (Paladin, Fighter) , but still better.

I can't think of a single build where a Monk would want this over another feat, and if he is going to be a weapon user Weapon Master (for nick) will almost always be better.

Depends if they want to go.
Shadow monk with 23 AC, in darkness, with an alternative defense isn't going to be hit much. Grapple an enemy and they won't hit anything.

Bettet than +4 damage once per turn, IMO.

On a Rogue it competes with Uncanny Dodge.

Same as monks.
0 damage + lingering buff is better than half damage.

I am not sure the juice is worth the squeeze though compared to other feats.

Not at low levels. Being missed by 2 isn't going to happen very often.
But as AC scales, and multiattack comes into play, it's ability to help improves.

A monk can grab weapon mastery at 4, grappler at 8, and defensive duelist (+4 AC) at 12 and get 20 Dex for instance.

 

[ECMO3]

True, if you can keep their attention.

Well if you can't then it isn't doing much anyway.

Don't darts also work?

Yes, but only if you have one in your hand .... which means you didn't throw it, so 6 of 20 i guess technically

Get sharp shooter and you can use it in melee.

No you can't. If you use a dart to make a melee attack it is considered an improvised weapon, whether you have sharpshooter or not.

The only thing that doesn't work is the Crusher feat. (Edit: or Shillelagh) But you can still dual wield

yes. There are 100 different combinations you can use to dual wield weapons with the light property. This does not work with 49 of those combinations.

ISame as monks.
0 damage + lingering buff is better than half damage.

But it is not better than alternative options

Not at low levels. Being missed by 2 isn't going to happen very often.

It will happen 66% of the time you will be missed by

A monk can grab weapon mastery at 4, grappler at 8, and defensive duelist (+4 AC) at 12 and get 20 Dex for instance.

IF he starts with a 17 Dex, but not if he starts with a 16 or lower or an 18-20 and both those conditions are more common than starting with a 17 exactly.

 

[mellored]

Yes, but only if you have one in your hand .... which means you didn't throw it, so 6 of 20 i guess technically

You can throw and draw.

No you can't. If you use a dart to make a melee attack it is considered an improvised weapon, whether you have sharpshooter or not.

Throw it in melee range.
I'm not saying it's a great option.
But most of the weapons you are counting aren't great either

But it is not better than alternative options

At higher levels it is.
I.e. at level 12 with +4 AC.

IF he starts with a 17 Dex, but not if he starts with a 16 or lower or an 18-20 and both those conditions are more common than starting with a 17 exactly.

We always use point buy. I haven't seen anyone not have 17 in their attack stat since 2024. And very rarely in 2014.

But more so, that wasn't a sword and board build.

So probably paladin / rogue of some kind. With a whip, Slasher, defensive style, and defensive duelist.

-20' to speed, highest AC, and not terrible damage.

 

[ECMO3]

You can throw and draw.

You can only draw one weapon with each attack. So if you have one attack you draw a dart and throw it and then have no dart.

Throw it in melee range.
I'm not saying it's a great option.
But most of the weapons you are counting aren't great either

Most of them (all of them) are better than darts.

At higher levels it is.
I.e. at level 12 with +4 AC.

But that is not better than a host of other feats or ASIs you can get when you already have a reaction to reduce damage.

 

[mellored]

You can only draw one weapon with each attack. So if you have one attack you draw a dart and throw it and then have no dart.

Start with one in your hand.
The you can throw and draw.

Most of them (all of them) are better than darts.

Agreed.
And I can't really imagine how someone can parry with a dart.
But you can, by the rules.

But that is not better than a host of other feats or ASIs you can get when you already have a reaction to reduce damage.

Name 5 feats that a rogue with shield would rather have.

 

[FrogReaver]

It does work "fine" but mathematically it is most effective at reducing damage when combined with a shield. It is mathematically more powerful when your AC is higher.

The analysis around the benefits of AC is deeply flawed and relies almost entirely on single enemy attack values while ignoring crits. You often see it cited that going from 10% to 5% chance to be hit effectively doubles (+100%) your survivability to attacks. But that just isn't true.

*Note: the goal of the below is to show that accounting for crits and non-uniform enemy attack bonuses tends to lessen the actual benefit of each additional AC compared to what is normally cited.

Analysis Assumptions

• Crit Damage is 1.5x normal damage
• You face Attacks with bonuses 4, 5, 6, 7 each 25% of the time
• Damage per attack is the same (could add in some non-uniformity there as well, but didn't initially)

Analysis Conclusions

• Using the above assumptions the highest Effective HP increase was only +33% for a single AC bonus.
• The lowest I compared to was 11 AC to 12 AC which was +6.7% effective hp.

To put things in perspective for Defensive Duelist.

• At level 5 it grants +3 AC. For a base 17 AC character that's +43% more effective hp vs attacks than base AC using the above assumptions.
• At level 5 it grants +3 AC. For a base 20 AC character that's +75% more effective hp vs attacks than base AC using the above assumptions.

Ultimately, while +1 AC doesn't add a ton of value except at really high base AC's (but even then no where near as much as is often claimed), defensive duelist +3 or more AC adds a ton of value even at standard AC values, and while it is more at higher AC's, giving up the option to dual wield, or easily pull out a bow due to wearing a shield can easily tank DPR.

Personally I like the idea of having a shield user's AC, while being able to dual wield for damage and pull out a bow easily if needed.

 

[FrogReaver]

Yes and no.

Yes:
If you are alone in a fight with an enemy, then yes, as your effective hp go from bery much to near infinite (except for a critical hit every 20 attacks on average).

No:
Since you usually are not alone in a duel 1 vs 1, going from medium effective hp to high effective hp is usually enough to outlast your party members. So if your effective HP is already very high, adding even more usually has a lot of diminishing return and it is probably better to invest in the sentinel feat to force an enemy to fight you instead of squishies.

This too, 100%. Unless the party is also dedicating their builds to being more survivable as well.

 

[Mistwell]

The analysis around the benefits of AC is deeply flawed and relies almost entirely on single enemy attack values while ignoring crits. You often see it cited that going from 10% to 5% chance to be hit effectively doubles (+100%) your survivability to attacks. But that just isn't true.

*Note: the goal of the below is to show that accounting for crits and non-uniform enemy attack bonuses tends to lessen the actual benefit of each additional AC compared to what is normally cited.

Analysis Assumptions

• Crit Damage is 1.5x normal damage
• You face Attacks with bonuses 4, 5, 6, 7 each 25% of the time
• Damage per attack is the same (could add in some non-uniformity there as well, but didn't initially)

Analysis Conclusions

• Using the above assumptions the highest Effective HP increase was only +33% for a single AC bonus.
• The lowest I compared to was 11 AC to 12 AC which was +6.7% effective hp.

To put things in perspective for Defensive Duelist.

• At level 5 it grants +3 AC. For a base 17 AC character that's +43% more effective hp vs attacks than base AC using the above assumptions.
• At level 5 it grants +3 AC. For a base 20 AC character that's +75% more effective hp vs attacks than base AC using the above assumptions.

Ultimately, while +1 AC doesn't add a ton of value except at really high base AC's (but even then no where near as much as is often claimed), defensive duelist +3 or more AC adds a ton of value even at standard AC values, and while it is more at higher AC's, giving up the option to dual wield, or easily pull out a bow due to wearing a shield can easily tank DPR.

Personally I like the idea of having a shield user's AC, while being able to dual wield for damage and pull out a bow easily if needed.

Defensive Duelist costs a feat spot and your reaction every turn. A very high cost. Might be worth it but there is a lot of competition for both.

 

[prototype00]

So I’ve not seen it mentioned, but the current high tier DPR shenanigans build is actually Sword and Board by preference.

I’m of course referring to the Warlock 2 (or 1)/ Valor Bard X with Conjure Minor Elementals running.

1. Attack
2. Eldritch Blast (for four attacks) extra attack swap
3. Bonus action attack (since you cast a spell with a casting time of one action on your turn)

All with a single weapon and a shield for top tier AC (you probably need Spell Sniper if you want to hit with Eldritch Blast at 5ft range).