[SWSE] Are Jedi just plain better than everyone else?

[Asmor]

Friend: I'm still finding it very hard to not find Jedi unbalanced despite everyone trying to convince me the other classes are just as good. "But you could be a poseur rogue!"
Asmor: Incidentally, I found out the downsides of area attacks
Friend: Like...level 1, ability to block 1 ranged attack per round, maybe 2, rarely 3. Level 2, same thing but with both ranged and close-combat. PS: You can also use crazy force-magic for boffo-damage or mind control.
Asmor: I think the jedi's biggest weakness is range. Most of their force powers have relatively limited ranges, compared to even lighter ranged weapons, and their light saber is also an issue
Asmor: They don't get any ranged weapon proficiencies
Asmor: And when there's a dozen storm troopers 200 meters away blasting at you-- or even doing area attacks at you-- being able to deflect a bolt or two isn't that great.
Friend: Oh Jesus. Compared to, what, the guys who can't deflect ANY? And don't have the possibility of lifting a space-barge with their mind and using it as cover or dropping it on the enemy?
Asmor: No, compared to the guys who can take cover and fire back
Friend: Jedi aren't specifically prohibited from buying a ranged combat proficiency, if I recall
Asmor: No, but it does mean they're wasting a feat on it
Asmor: A feat they could have used on, say, force training
Friend: So they get to choose to be a force ninja or a blaster/saber ninja, until a later level (3 or 6) when they get to be both

I can't think of any good arguments for him, except saying that if you're focusing on combat then you're going to be a one-trick pony. I don't think that this argument's going to hold much water with my friend, though, because he's a munchkin of the highest order.

Ultimately, though, the Jedi DOES seem way better than everyone else. Force powers, awesome melee weapon, protection from ranged attacks, every save is decent, best HP... Really, the only place they falter is skills.

Are Jedi just plain better than every other class, when the blasters start blasting?

 

[gribble]

I think the point is that a jedi who spends a feat on ranged weapon proficiency isn't going to be as good as the scoundrel/soldier with Point Blank Shot, Rapid Shot, etc. To be even with the ranged combat guys at ranged combat, a jedi has to invest a lot of feats (and probably also multiclass and pick up some non-jedi talents). But then he's not as good at melee combat as the raging wookie scout/soldier who's focussed on that. Or as good with force powers as the noble/force sensative who has focussed on force powers.

Yes, Jedi have a lot of options, but IME with Saga they have to really focus on one area to be good at it. Even then, the only advantages that Jedi get over the other classes are the Jedi talents (Block, Deflect, Redirect seem to be the most popular example), and the other classes get talents which are just as good (in different circumstances) that only they can get.

Rather than looking at the theory, get your friend to make up a jedi, and compare it to an actual soldier that you've made up focussing in one area.
By third level the jedi will have 2 talents (block, deflect) and 3 feats (at least one of which will probably be Force Training, and one of the others will probably be Skill Focus [UTF]). That leaves the jedi with likely only one discretionary feat.
The soldier, on the other hand, spends his two talents on say Weapon Specialisation and Melee Smash, for a total of +3 to damage, one of his three feats is advanced weapon proficiency, the other weapon focus, and the third... how about powerful charge or rapid/mighty swing?

Give the soldier a vibroaxe and it's pretty easy to see which one will be more effective in melee combat, even if their Str scores are equal (in reality, you'll probably find the Soldier has a higher score, as he doesn't have to worry about putting high scores in Wis or Cha, unlike the Jedi). And thats not even looking at Ranged Combat (which your jedi will be pretty awful at by 3rd level, whereas a specialist soldier will be just as good as the specialist melee build).

No sir, seems (in theory, and in the actual play I've observed) to be very nicely balanced.

 

[Treacherous_B]

I think the point is that a jedi who spends a feat on ranged weapon proficiency isn't going to be as good as the scoundrel/soldier with Point Blank Shot, Rapid Shot, etc. To be even with the ranged combat guys at ranged combat, a jedi has to invest a lot of feats (and probably also multiclass and pick up some non-jedi talents). But then he's not as good at melee combat as the raging wookie scout/soldier who's focussed on that. Or as good with force powers as the noble/force sensative who has focussed on force powers.

Yes, Jedi have a lot of options, but IME with Saga they have to really focus on one area to be good at it. Even then, the only advantages that Jedi get over the other classes are the Jedi talents (Block, Deflect, Redirect seem to be the most popular example), and the other classes get talents which are just as good (in different circumstances) that only they can get.

Rather than looking at the theory, get your friend to make up a jedi, and compare it to an actual soldier that you've made up focussing in one area.
By third level the jedi will have 2 talents (block, deflect) and 3 feats (at least one of which will probably be Force Training, and one of the others will probably be Skill Focus [UTF]). That leaves the jedi with likely only one discretionary feat.
The soldier, on the other hand, spends his two talents on say Weapon Specialisation and Melee Smash, for a total of +3 to damage, one of his three feats is advanced weapon proficiency, the other weapon focus, and the third... how about powerful charge or rapid/mighty swing?

Give the soldier a vibroaxe and it's pretty easy to see which one will be more effective in melee combat, even if their Str scores are equal (in reality, you'll probably find the Soldier has a higher score, as he doesn't have to worry about putting high scores in Wis or Cha, unlike the Jedi). And thats not even looking at Ranged Combat (which your jedi will be pretty awful at by 3rd level, whereas a specialist soldier will be just as good as the specialist melee build).

No sir, seems (in theory, and in the actual play I've observed) to be very nicely balanced.

Except the Jedi can use Block/Deflect to prevent getting hit by a vibro-axe swing/blaster shot. For free. And then attack into no such defense.

 

[gribble]

Except the Jedi can use Block/Deflect to prevent getting hit by a vibro-axe swing/blaster shot. For free. And then attack into no such defense.

Which is very good at low levels, but rapidly becomes a marginal benefit at higher levels (as the Jedi reflex defense increases, block/deflect become less useful, *irrespective* of how good the attacker is).
Besides, you're taking a very specific example - one-on-one *melee* combat - in that scenario the Jedi will have an advantage. In combat against a group of enemies, the Soldier will most likely be more effective (as he has at least a couple of extra feats for things like double attack, cleave, whilrwind attack, etc).
As I said, IME Jedi are pretty well balanced with the other classes - even if you only consider combat (and they're clearly inferior to the other classes in most non-combat situations).

 

[Edena_of_Neith]

I'm sure the Jedi are balanced in the game, but I'm also sure they were always meant to be far more powerful than the other classes.
I cite this one piece of evidence:

Luke Skywalker to Jabba and all his people on the skybarge and transports:

'Jabba, this is your last chance.'
'Free us ... or die.'

 

[Donovan Morningfire]

Going by the movies, the Jedi are a cut above the rest.

Luke in RotJ is a prime example, especially in the Battle at the Pit of Carkoon, where he pretty much dominates the combat. You've also got Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon storming through the Trade Federation ship in TPM like Godzilla through Tokyo.

The disparity is still there in Saga Edition... it's just not as wide as it was in earlier versions of Star Wars RPG. Especially the d6 versions, where a mid-level Jedi was the dominant power in a fight, especially once they ignited their lightsaber.

Thing to remember with the Jedi is sure they use Force Powers to do all sorts of nifty stuff. Problem is, especially at lower levels, you can only use those powers once or twice a combat before they are expended, baring Force Points and certain talents. They've also got some very nifty defensive talents (Block/Deflect + Redirect Shot), but the other classes, particularly the Soldier, as their own very nifty talents that can wreck their target in one hit. To say nothing of a Scoundrel with Dastardly Strike and/or Sneak Attack catching a Jedi flat-footed, which if I remember the rules correctly means a Jedi can't use Block/Deflect since they have to be aware of the attack and not flat-footed (could be confusing it with Lightsaber Defense; don't have the book handy at the moment).

 

[theredrobedwizard]

Luke in RotJ is a prime example, especially in the Battle at the Pit of Carkoon, where he pretty much dominates the combat. You've also got Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon storming through the Trade Federation ship in TPM like Godzilla through Tokyo.

To be fair, most of the things Luke was fighting at Carkoom were mooks/non-heroics. Same with battle-droids. They exist to be slaughterated by heroic characters. Luke was level 11 at that point vs a bunch of low level nonheroics. Obi-Wan was level 5, Qui Gon was over 13; again vs low level mooks. These were supposed to be one sided fights.

Jedi in the movies seem like ultramen because they're heroes; specifically ones that usually either fight A) lots of lower level mooks, or B) one or two heroic baddies.

-TRRW

 

[pawsplay]

If you a jedi with a tricked out Block score, don't melee him. Throw a grenade at him.

 

[Randolpho]

If you a jedi with a tricked out Block score, don't melee him. Throw a grenade at him.

The *new* great equalizer.

 

[GlassJaw]

I haven't checked out the SE yet but I'm very familiar with the other SW RPG's (d20, WEG d6). Jedi characters are ALWAYS more powerful than the other classes/characters. I think the problem is that people try to play them alongside a "normal" group and then the balance issues become more evident.

I've always found that SW games work better with either all-Jedi or no-Jedi groups (or at least with Jedi-lite characters only).