[SWSE] Are Jedi just plain better than everyone else?

[ragboy]

The clones handled them pretty handily after Order 66, with only a couple of exceptions.

The Jedi are supposed to be powerful, but taking a page from the movies, circumstances should limit their power (few Jedi, strict codes, specific missions, almost no Sith, no force users but Jedi/Sith, constantly hunted -- depending on the era, etc etc.)

Even with the game rules balanced, I think Jedi can unbalance a game if they're too far outside those guidelines.

Grenade -- Can't the Jedi just Force Push it back at you? Don't have Saga...

 

[MoogleEmpMog]

I haven't checked out the SE yet but I'm very familiar with the other SW RPG's (d20, WEG d6). Jedi characters are ALWAYS more powerful than the other classes/characters. I think the problem is that people try to play them alongside a "normal" group and then the balance issues become more evident.

I've always found that SW games work better with either all-Jedi or no-Jedi groups (or at least with Jedi-lite characters only).

Except that this is no longer true. d20 and d6 Star Wars suffered from this problem; Saga does not.

Perhaps not below 5th level, but past that I'll take a tricked out soldier over a tricked out Jedi for dueling. The only major advantage Jedi have is block/deflect (lightsabers are no better than vibroweapons unless the target has DR), and that's no bigger advantage than being able to buff armor the way a soldier can. The soldier can own at range even if he's not tricked out (since he comes with free Weapon Proficiency (rifles)), close to melee and beat down with the armor and melee smash talent trees - especially since he's almost certain to have better physical stats.

The only real edges Force-users have over non-Force-users are Mind Trick (which can really nail a soldier) and Force Choke (which can establish a virtual stun lock). Of course, nothing stops a soldier from taking Force Training and Force Sensitivity; he's only one feat behind a Jedi in this respect.

 

[cignus_pfaccari]

Grenade -- Can't the Jedi just Force Push it back at you? Don't have Saga...

Maybe if the Jedi has an action available before it explodes.

Of course, if it's contact-fuzed, so it goes off when it hits something, that isn't going to help.

Brad

 

[Kaffis]

If you a jedi with a tricked out Block score, don't melee him. Throw a grenade at him.

Make it a stun grenade, then shoot him and laugh.

 

[Wulf Ratbane]

Put me down for one vote of, "DUH?"

 

[GlassJaw]

Except that this is no longer true. d20 and d6 Star Wars suffered from this problem; Saga does not.

Who said it was a problem? If Jedi are on "equal" footing as the rest of the classes, I would argue the system is unfairly nerfing them in order to force (no pun intended) them to be on equal footing.

 

[HeapThaumaturgist]

This is why, when I run SWRPG, I just go ahead and play a Jedi game.

Which gets some nervous looks from players.

People are so used to folks saying: "You can't play a Jedi, Jedi are broken, gah roar fuss, no Jedi in my games, StarWars isn't just about Jedi!" that it seems like the players I've met are floored when I say:

"Let's ignite some lightsabers and get wuxia."

But that's just me.

If I'm going to growl and fuss and get upset about Jedi and ban them from my games ... I've got a lot of other Space Opera games I could be playing.

--fje

 

[Asmor]

Who said it was a problem? If Jedi are on "equal" footing as the rest of the classes, I would argue the system is unfairly nerfing them in order to force (no pun intended) them to be on equal footing.

Not neccessarily. True, given a Jedi and a smuggler with equal amounts of experience in their chosen professions, the jedi's probably a lot more powerful, influential, and all around better.

However, a level 1 Jedi is a brand-spanking-new padawan, admittedly with a lot of training but little to no real experience, while a level 1 scoundrel's probably been, uhh, "scoundreling" out in the wild for years if not decades.

A level 10 Jedi's an experienced and powerful knight, though he still has lots of room to improve. A level 10 scoundrel's probably one of the best scoundrels ever to scoundrel a scoundrel...thing.

A level 20 Jedi is basically a god. A level 20 scoundrel... Realistically probably doesn't exist. Actually, I'd say anyone without force probably shouldn't advance past level 12 or 13. If he did exist, he'd be the greatest crime lord ever to live, an emperor unto himself. He'd command not just armies of mooks, but entirely likely he'd be able to command any given planet's army. He has at his disposal cadres of the greatest bounty hunters, smugglers, spies and assassins.

And yet, this criminal kingpin, with all his resources, is merely the equal of some dude who's just spent his entire life living an ascetic lifestyle and meditating.

So basically, my point is that Jedis in the movies and universe are superior to everyone else, but that doesn't mean that a game can't realistically balance Jedis with non-Jedis. Non-jedis of the same level as a jedi just have a lot more experience and resources than the equivelentally-powered Jedi.

 

[Hjorimir]

Put me down for one vote of, "DUH?"

QFT.

I mean, you have seen the movies before. Right?

 

[GlassJaw]

So basically, my point is that Jedis in the movies and universe are superior to everyone else, but that doesn't mean that a game can't realistically balance Jedis with non-Jedis. Non-jedis of the same level as a jedi just have a lot more experience and resources than the equivelentally-powered Jedi.

Which is essentially irrelevant when the players start rolling dice. When people say "balance", they really mean "comparable effectiveness in combat".

Resources and contacts don't mean squat when the poor unknown Jedi is mowing everything down in combat and everyone else is watching. Every player wants to have their "thing" and be effective at it. By their nature, Jedi are supposed to be "better" than everyone else. That's why they are Jedi.

I like Heap's thinking a lot. RPG's with Jedi's should be all or nothing.